Excellent Double Spey Video - Good explanation of the technique

[springer]

I dont understand the video technology behind Aitor's points and because you cannot measure effort/force from a video clip Im not sure how watching a film can allow us to establish anything exactly.

I agree with Paul that we can determine top or bottom hand dominance just by watching a caster, it does however become more difficult if the caster uses a quite accurate 50/50 push/pull style.

A moving fulcrum is surely only moving in the same way as the truck in Robert analogy providing the caster is using his top hand in a neutral way. By neutral I mean it moves fast enough to allow stroke length but no so much as it takes away from the effectiveness of the bottom hand - I think this is what Henrik eludes to in that clip.

At any given point in my cast if you stop the clip I believe I have a fulcrum in my top hand, I believe this because I place an emphasis on using the bottom hand to operate the lever, the fulcrum only moves because it has to, it hasnt stopped being the fulcrum though?

[sms]

If start moving the observation grid, we can move it so that 1st class lever to 3 class lever. Or vice versa.
We need to keep the observation grid stationary in reference to ground.

And if we talk bottom hand or top hand effort we must talk force. And as Newton already said and I quoted in my previous posting, there is always action and reaction. And it doesn't depend directly on movement, but on force (which goes to movement via acceleration of course).

If you have a bucket full of water and you need to hold it in the air vs. lifting, there is no difference in force needed to do that.

[Aitor]

At any given point in my cast if you stop the clip I believe I have a fulcrum in my top hand, I believe this because I place an emphasis on using the bottom hand to operate the lever, the fulcrum only moves because it has to, it hasnt stopped being the fulcrum though?

Not need to believe when you can know:
http://vimeo.com/27515197

Gordon Judd has the application to calculate where the fulcrum is at any given instant in the cast. It is enough to provide a video using the fulcrum style and that application will tell wether the fulcrum is in the upper hand or not. It is that easy.

[springer]

If start moving the observation grid, we can move it so that 1st class lever to 3 class lever. Or vice versa.
We need to keep the observation grid stationary in reference to ground.

And if we talk bottom hand or top hand effort we must talk force. And as Newton already said and I quoted in my previous posting, there is always action and reaction. And it doesn't depend directly on movement, but on force (which goes to movement via acceleration of course).

If you have a bucket full of water and you need to hold it in the air vs. lifting, there is no difference in force needed to do that.

Do we have an 'over my head smiley'?

[springer]

Gordon Judd has the application to calculate where the fulcrum is at any given instant in the cast.

How can this be done on a DH rod without having any measurement of force applied by either hand?

I could see how it may well be possible with a single handed rod as there is only one potential driver.

Surely and accurate measurement of where the drive comes from in the use of a DH rod will determine where the fulcrum lies?

[Juergen Friesenhahn]

To refer to my post, I wrote, that I can't judge, if I see hands/rodposition only.
This was also meant by standing next to a caster, watching hands only.

I am sure, all of you can judge a car passing you, if it is front- or reardriven.
No speedvectors and slomos will help to judge this.

J.

[Aitor]

Gordon Judd has the application to calculate where the fulcrum is at any given instant in the cast.

How can this be done on a DH rod without having any measurement of force applied by either hand?

Again:

http://vimeo.com/31509668

[springer]

Gordon Judd has the application to calculate where the fulcrum is at any given instant in the cast.

How can this be done on a DH rod without having any measurement of force applied by either hand?

Again:

http://vimeo.com/31509668

Sorry Aitor I see nothing here that would change my mind. I see a bit of slomo and somebody drawing a blue line which appears to start with a predetermined point somewhere near the reel?

Its either way too simple or way too technical for me, probabaly the later

I guess I will just have to get used to living in the dark.

[sms]

It would look like the red circle is the instant rotational point (fulcrum).

The fulcrum can be determined without measuring the force applied by top and bottom hand. The thing is that force does not correlate to the individual movement of one hand, it is a "sum play".

[springer]

It would look like the red circle is the instant rotational point (fulcrum).

The fulcrum can be determined without measuring the force applied by top and bottom hand. The thing is that force does not correlate to the individual movement of one hand, it is a "sum play".

Have you got me that smiley yet?

[Aitor]

Sorry Aitor I see nothing here that would change my mind. I see a bit of slomo and somebody drawing a blue line which appears to start with a predetermined point somewhere near the reel?

As Sakari said the red circle is the center of rotation for every instant in the cast. It is the fulcrum.

If you provide a video with a Fulcrum Style forward cast technology can show where the fulcrum really is.
If the result shows that the fulcrum is in the upper hand I will change my mind.
Would you change your mind if that analysis shows that the fulcrum is below the upper hand?

[springer]

Sorry Aitor I see nothing here that would change my mind. I see a bit of slomo and somebody drawing a blue line which appears to start with a predetermined point somewhere near the reel?

As Sakari said the red circle is the center of rotation for every instant in the cast. It is the fulcrum.

If you provide a video with a Fulcrum Style forward cast technology can show where the fulcrum really is.
If the result shows that the fulcrum is in the upper hand I will change my mind.
Would you change your mind if that analysis shows that the fulcrum is below the upper hand?

I would need to know and understand a lot more about how the analysis worked Aitor. Ive asked for this info but so far its not forthcoming.

At present I see the red mark you describe as the center of rotation, it moves in just the same way as your top hand does but without understanding how intent/force doesnt need to be included I just dont get it.

[Aitor]

I would need to know and understand a lot more about how the analysis worked Aitor. Ive asked for this info but so far its not forthcoming.

I don't know how that analysis tool works; just as I don't know how the computer I am using works either.

What I know is that Gordon Judd can analyze a video of a cast and tell where the fulcrum is placed at any time. That is what I asked him to do with that switch rod overhead forward cast.
If you do the same with a cast of yours we could see where the fulcrum lies; the application analyzes just objective data, not intent.

[Paul Arden]

Hi Aitor,

a second class lever would be both hands pushing in the direction of the cast.

It's very very difficult to tell from an animated GIF, but I would go bottom hand because he's pulled down into the stroke with both hands.

Cheers, Paul

[Paul Arden]

To refer to my post, I wrote, that I can't judge, if I see hands/rodposition only.
This was also meant by standing next to a caster, watching hands only.

I am sure, all of you can judge a car passing you, if it is front- or reardriven.
No speedvectors and slomos will help to judge this.

J.

This is a very good post, and while I agree with it, how do you tell if a car is front or rear driven?

Thanks, Paul