Tempo

[Stoatstail50]

If its not about speed then I think it might mean something more like rhythm too Will....

I dont want this to turn into some sort of witch hunt and I haven't got the book Aitor....but does Al Buhr read SL ?, could someone ask him what he means .....??

[Marc LaMouche]

Rhythm (from Greek—rhythmos, "any regular recurring motion, symmetry"[1]) may be generally defined as a "movement marked by the regulated succession of strong and weak elements, or of opposite or different conditions."

sounds better than Tempo, specially the the 'strong and weak elements' part but the symmetry aspect is still there.

personally, i think it's better to stay away from these notions when teaching. Aitor's signature used to be something like "All the way back and all the forward". i think that's a lot better than trying to explain some notion of time.

cheers,
marc

[Aitor]

From Al Burh's book:

[Alejandro]

The "tempo" is the absolute speed of execution of a musical passage. The tempo indicates the metronome oscillations per minute. For example, for a "adage" the metronome is adjusted between 52 and 54 oscillations. An oscillation of the metronome is the duration of a black note.
The rhythm is the regular repetition of musical accents. Not it is the same thing that tempo, but there is a clear relationship since a quicker tempo implies a quicker rhythm.
I think that what means Buhr is that although to lift the line it is necessary to make an effort because the friction of the water, it is not necessary to continue with that effort when the line comes out the water. I suppose that for that reason Al Buhr separates effort and speed (or tempo).
If it is not this way, then still I am not prepared for my THCI test.

[mac brown]

Good topic Mark. I like using it since it relates to music (something that folks either have a knack for or they do not). Ever wondered why folks that have a difficult time clapping there hands in time also may struggle with the basic fly cast? I think they are related.

You can have a techie type that understand vector forces, momentum, etc... too that still struggle with basic rhythm issues. I think looking back over the years with the guys and gals that pick up concepts the quickest for advanced type casts also have an innate sense of rhythm. They are artists from the start. Rhythm encompasses tempo, timing, and syncopation.

Alejandro and Aitor have it nailed I think To teach the little subtle nuances of more advanced casting strokes requires a higher appreciation and need for rhythm. I think these terms can be useful in a teaching scenario with the right person. Under the casting terms on my site I use all of them often when teaching - rhythm encompasses syncopation, tempo, and timing. For those that interchange these terms to mean the same-dig deeper. We can tweak any one of them in the field and yield a different result for final layout. Nice topic Mark

[mac brown]

Speed and tempo have been brought up in the thread. These kind of tell you what someones background may be. Hence the room for both in teaching. One is used mostly from those who studied some basic mechanics and the other from musicians. Big clash there-yet instructors may be fluent with both-depending on audience being mostly poets or engineers. I see nothing wrong with an appreciation for both.

[Stoatstail50]

Are you saying that speed and tempo are interchangeable terms in the context of Speys Mac ?

I think that what means Buhr is that although to lift the line it is necessary to make an effort because the friction of the water, it is not necessary to continue with that effort when the line comes out the water.

That depends what "effort" is doesn't it ? if you want to move the rod and line somewhere else after you have made the lift you are going to have to make some "effort" of some description to get it there,it won't go there on its own.

If "effort" is what I think of as "force" and "tempo" is "speed" and the speed increases/decreases in some way, ie. there is an acceleration, then we cannot disassociate the force from the acceleration or the "effort" from the "tempo".

If "tempo" is something different then all is well with the world....but if it is different.... then what is it ?

[Paul Arden]

I don't agree with that Mac, I think the lift is deliberately slow and then the line repositioning an acceleration. In fact it's not even as simple as that because the line repositioning is often a two stage acceleration. The first part turns turns the line to the anchor direction and the second part accelerates the line into a D loop.

Anyway for me the whole waltzing thing is to connect the motions. I'm starting to realise however that it may not be as simple as that (and quite possibly wrong!).

Cheers, Paul

[Aitor]

...as we also all know about twohanded casting, that force applied is separate from the tempo of the cast...

So we all know but nobody can explain what it really means?

[VoodooChild]

So we all know but nobody can explain what it really means?

the story of my life, hermano, the story of my life. :closedeyes:

[Aitor]

So we all know but nobody can explain what it really means?

the story of my life, hermano, the story of my life. :closedeyes:

Don't worry compadre, you are not alone!

[cesarwf]

Tempo: Appropriate speed during the cast. This also include lift, sweep, stop and forward cast according cast needs. Too slow, bad tempo (bad cast). Too fast, bad tempo (bad cast).

Coordination: From wikipedia, Coordination is the act of coordinating, making different people or things work together for a goal or effect to fulfill desired goals in an organization.


:-)

[mac brown]

Paul, what are we not agreeing on? i did not address the lift, sweep, etc... but it is good what you put. my post dealt more with description of tempo, cadence, pace, speed of the cast. the more terms that can connect when teaching the better. point is there are many backgrounds. thanks

[Juergen Friesenhahn]

Setup for easy explantion of this rule:
Doublehanded rod with a longbelly speyline, 75 ft outside the rodtip.

Line on the hangdown.
Do no lift.
Pull the line on an incline with an ultrasmooth tempo.
What happens?
You have to "work", put energy into the movement to pull the line free, the rod loads deeply. Pull steadily.

At a certain point the line breaks free, the rod unloads and puts the line into a "v"loop, if you follow the incline, the pulling feels dramatically lighter, because the adhesion is gone.

Would you now change the tempo of the cast dramatically?

J.

[White Hunter]

Sounds very shaky J

One statement able too hold water for all spey casting motions of this type..??

What about DH rod with long belly line but with only 30 ft out the tip..

Lee