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Torque in Spey Casting

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Lasse Karlsson
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Post by Lasse Karlsson »

Paul Arden wrote:Got any pics of Al's book, Lasse :???:
I could have, but you know I can't post something like that on a public forum, just buy the book and give the man some credit :cool:

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Post by Will »

Lasse Karlsson wrote:It's page 42 of Al's book, he mentions that Hugh Falkus did something similar when reverse casting.

Lasse
Yep, Falkus talks about rotating the wrist as if you were turning a screwdriver, in his Spey Casting book. Think he recommended it for all DH casts, not just reverse.

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Post by Paul Arden »

I actually have a copy of Al's book, but it's in my Canadian Truck!
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Lasse Karlsson
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Post by Lasse Karlsson »

So you haven't got a copy, I do not believe you have a truck in Canada :D
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mac brown
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Post by mac brown »

I think what Hugh and Al are advocating is similar to many fishing cast. The dh rod is good for discussion since the real nitrous of castimg is hauling. Now all that is left is rod hand motions.
I believe some pretty amazing line speeds can be attained through twisting farthur through the stroke. So, we are getting ready to set up some time gates again in a few weeks. It would be good to clock speeds for comparing. If the line speed is much higher would you then admit there was greater rod loading? I think there is because I can rotate my single rod comfortably through 300 degrees and if we want further you can wind up for a full 360. If this rotation comes late in stroke then it can produce interesting casts. Just another way of doing it.

It no doubt would effect counterflex as well which may be part of the puzzle. It would be nice to have video. I like it in limited space for varying my loop planes. The other advantage in cross winds is that delivery can be verticle loop plane which unrolls on water as soon as casting stroke ends. Joe Mulson is masterful at this in Fl.
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Post by Merlin »

The question behind could be to understand if the twist in the rod could make it faster. I cannot tell today.
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mac brown
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Post by mac brown »

Had a chat with Al the other day about this. He uses it for the dh rod for the same reasons I teach it more for single. Rotation is greatest for the single which uses different pressure from the hand. The screwdriver is a great analogy which pressures the palm of hand.
It offers lightning fast deliveries when using a horizontal rod plane and a vertical loop plane. The tip lags behind as in a normal casting stroke.

I also use it often for piles when rotating clockwise with horizontal rod plane it delivers fly first with leader and line falling last to the water.

The other big advantage I see with it are very presise curves.
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Post by Paul Arden »

Hi Mac,

I also use it too of course. It's extremely quick and gives very pointy loops. I just don't believe it is a rod loading move in the twisting torque sense.

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Post by plugcaster »

It might be worth looking into rotating the fist when punching and see what information is out there?

Edit: I just had a brief look through half a dozen articles regarding the above, and the general consensus is it makes no difference to the power generated. I would respectfully suggest the torque makes for a harder stop. If everything in your arm is twisted up, it is also locked up and can't deflect opening the loop.
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Post by Paul Arden »

I don't think that's the same thing, but certainly an interesting idea. The question is can you rotate arm, open elbow or rotate elbow quickest and wouldn't the summation of all three always be quicker than only one or two?

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Post by mac brown »

Paul, I am sure you and a host of folks play with these a bunch! :D You were ninja like with them years ago. On the torque question, I think it does exist quite similar to the definition of torque. Years ago (early 90's) I was often fascinated with the actions of cause and effect when casting. I found myself questioning most of the legends at the time because I felt like their rules were failing me at the time (still do actually). No one ever talked about casts being a transverse wave ! Much less using hundreds of them for presentations on the water. I called it wave speed of line then but I think this site has helped to bring so many things to the table.

I will explain a bit deeper the use of rotary thrust style of casts. The CE program I did out west and in the SE this past year went into explaining this in detail. Here it goes: most casters globally spend most of their time practicing projectile throwing of line. The real secret to more efficient cast have a planned removal of mass of line. I call it the invisible pulley concept now. A great example of the removal of mass concept is hauling or demonstrating snaps.

This is easily explained when teaching by showing the loop laid out on the ground. Also an analogy I use is a beach ball-you can either push the top of the ball (projectile throwing motion), pull the bottom of the ball toward you ( removal of mass concept), or do both for really efficient movement of the ball (casts too).

When we discuss using a full 360* of pronation during the forward stroke I think we have both going on, but even this gets more complicated because it then depends on rod stop positioning. If the rod is pointed to the target or perpendicular to the target in general. These positions will determine how much of both (removal of mass or projectile motion is included).

I feel the invisible pulley concept is everywhere in fly casting including the loop or loops, snaps, hauls, circles, and eights, etc.... Once the student grasps this concept it opens up a world of casts. Sorry for the lengthy reply :p Hope something in there makes some sense too! The rotary casts we are discussing also maintains a higher degree of tension I think because we never loose the bright glowing colors as Lee talks about! Counterflex, being a by-product of the casting stroke, is almost non existent with these large rotations which stem mostly from forearm turnover. Sometimes these things are difficult to explain in text only though!
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Post by mac brown »

Oops! I forgot something in there too! One of the exercises I like to have even total beginners play around with is the endless combinations of 8's having the line placed near obstacles. The exercise has them use a slight throwing motion for accelerating the fly leg in 2 points throughout the 8. We then have them use the removal of mass concept by focusing on only the rod leg. Just think of varying tempo of snaps and this exercise becomes quite powerful for solving fishing examples on the stream. Cheers
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Post by gordonjudd »

If the line speed is much higher would you then admit there was greater rod loading?

Mac,
What do you mean by a greater loading of the rod? What are you "loading" it with?

1. Is it loading the rod with more potential energy that can then be converted to KE in the line? That is the infamous "big spring" theory that many people still think is the key to the physics of casting that was mentioned by Magnus, and seems to have a life of its own.

or

2. is it producing more bending force at the tip that can then be applied to the line over some added distance to increase the work energy that is applied to the line and thus increase its KE?

The torsional spring constant of a rod is quite small therefore twisting it along its long axis is not going to produce much torsional potential energy in terms of the rod acting like a torsion pendulum spring so I do not think it can do much to significantly increase line speed in terms of some involved PE to KE conversion process.

What twisting your wrist can do (especially with a single handed rod) is increase the wrist joint rotation range.
Image
As shown above pronating the forearm along with palmar flexion/extension of the wrist can give an angular rotation range of around 180 degrees. Rotation in the radial/ulnar deviation plane is only around 50 degrees.

Thus by rotating your wrist over a bigger angle you can move the tip over a much larger distance. That is especially true since it will also enable you to use more extension of the elbow and rotation of the trunk and still keep the rod moving in a roughly constant plane, although as Bernd is fond of saying "there are no straight lines in casting."

For a given bending profile vs time in the rod that added distance can produce much more work energy on the line as compared to limited range you can get with classic casting style where all of the wrist rotation is limited by ulnar/radial deviation.

Thus I think it is the added tip travel distance that it associated with a different type of wrist rotation that it important to casting, not the small amount of added stored PE in the rod that you get when you apply torque about its long axis to twist it.

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Post by Merlin »

Hi Gordy
Good to see you are back.
If I understand well it means twisting counterclockwise for a right handed caster
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Lasse Karlsson
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Post by Lasse Karlsson »

I call it the invisible pulley concept now.


Hi Mac

Have you had a talk with Carl Hutchinson?

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