Doublehaul

Holger Seipold · Post by **Holger Seipold** » Wed Aug 31, 2011 6:05 pm

Hey Guys,

I've got a question.

I read one article here on this Homepage about the doublehaul.

Why it is so important to stop the hauling exactly to the some time when the Rod stops. And what's the different between an abrupt and an non abrupt stop for the Loop. And what's the Impact on the loop.

May be you can show me some pictures?

And guys i Hope you will understood everything because my english is really poor.

Cheers

Holger

gordonjudd · Post by **gordonjudd** » Thu Sep 01, 2011 4:36 am

Holger,
There are a number of threads on the timing of the haul that you may want to check out by putting in a search for "haul AND timing" in the fly casting forum. Be forewarned however that will bring up 5 pages of threads to wade through.

I don't think there is one "best" approach to timing the haul since you see so many variations in timing used by good casters. I think that most distance casters do hold off on the haul so its peak velocity is around RSP1 and then they release sometime between RSP1 and MCF.

There are some good videos showing different hauling styles along with some analysis of the haul speed Lasse produced in some of his casts in this thread.

Good luck in digesting all of the different view on haul timing. This subject is a classic can of worms.

Gordy

Holger Seipold · Post by **Holger Seipold** » Thu Sep 01, 2011 2:54 pm

Hi Gordy,

Thank you very much. I think I've read a lot ...

seems as if it is a complex topic for me...

Cheers

Holger

gordonjudd · Post by **gordonjudd** » Thu Sep 01, 2011 3:27 pm

seems as if it is a complex topic for me...

Holger,
It is for everyone. That is why we do not understand it very well.

I suspect that from an energy standpoint it comes down to applying a force from the haul (due to the acceleration of the line hand) over a distance that force is applied.

However as noted in Goriely's Whip Wave paper the increase you get in the velocity of a whip wave by pulling back on the butt of the tip as the wave is being formed is another thing to consider. It works for the whip wave, so I do not see why it would not apply to its cousin (the fly wave) as well.

Gordy

Paul Arden · Post by **Paul Arden** » Thu Sep 01, 2011 9:10 pm

Hi Holger,

It's not important to stop the rod when the rod stops when double hauling, in fact this is something you don't want, but we have to decide what is meant when the rod stops. Butt stop is how we used to look at the cast, stop the butt, the rod unloads, passes a rod straight position (RSP), moves to maximum counterflex, recovers to rod straight, probably with several more oscillations.

Now it appears that actually this is outdated thinking; the rod is a harmonic oscillator, it loads and unloads over a period of time and butt stop is irrelevant.

Be that as it may, the haul's timing is rather interesting. With experienced distance casters the haul begins when the rod butt is perpendicular to the line path (or sometimes later), with a full line - and in the case of a Shooting Head, nearer the beginning of the Casting Stroke - and ends close to RSP and prior to counterflex. That would theoretically be the preferred haul and it appears that on high speed video that this is how it occurs/ish.

But we also know that the haul can begin and end at different points. What we do know is that if the haul ends significantly before the rod reaches RSP then the loop tails. What we don't know is if there is a gain with hauling post-RSP (Tension in the loop) or a detraction from distance (rearwards momentum of the line in the bottom of the loop formation). And we don't know how the haul's acceleration affects tip path in all situations, however we do know that a hauled cast can have a longer straighter tip path during rod unload than a non-hauled cast - and this we believe is significant.

There is much to be learned here. Bernd and I have just spent a day trying to work out why when we haul on a full-blown distance cast is there a horizontal wave appearing in the rod leg compared to a non-hauled cast. Are we pulling the rod into an S-shape in the loop plane? Is there a change in stroke resulting in a tracking error? Is the tick on a long carry somehow responsible for the wave when using an off-vertical loop plane? Or are we somehow experiencing a result of a horizontal dolphin nose? And so on...

I think right now that there are a lot of unanswered questions!

When it comes to an abrupt stop and an non-abrupt stop, this is also a great question. I think what we need to understand is what are the properties of a harmonic oscillator, because reading what Merlin and Gordy are saying I think pretty much everyone who teaches rod loading doesn't understand this and understanding this will change our thinking/teaching.

I'll start a thread!

Cheers, Paul

Holger Seipold · Post by **Holger Seipold** » Fri Sep 02, 2011 1:51 pm

Hi Paul and Gordy,

As first thank you both for your great anwser.

I have to Read this Thread several Times to understand exactly what You meaning.

But i've a little Imagination in what direction it goes ...

I'm training almost every day, and I noticed if i Move the Rod very smooth and apply a fast hauling i get an abrupt haul-stop and additionaly a V-shaped Loop. But not with an non abrupt haul-stop

Why...

Cheers

Holger

Paul Arden · Post by **Paul Arden** » Fri Sep 02, 2011 2:44 pm

Hi Holger,

if we are talking about the abruptness of the haul's stop then this is a different matter. I don't know is the answer, but it may be because when we accelerate to an abrupt stop with the haul it has a higher rate of acceleration. For distance I always teach to haul to a fully straightened arm.

The V-loop generally, here anyway, is thought to occur because of loop morph as a result of skin drag. The higher the line velocity, the greater the skin drag and the greater the effects of loop morph. The haul adds significant acceleration to the line. Personally I find it very difficult to cast a morphing V-loop without either a haul or pull-back.

Cheers, Paul

Tom · Post by **Tom** » Fri Sep 02, 2011 4:25 pm

Hi there Holger and Paul.
Is there any need for an abrupt haul stop at all?
What is there to gain?

Tom.

Holger Seipold · Post by **Holger Seipold** » Fri Sep 02, 2011 4:52 pm

Hi Paul,

sorry Paul, it is very difficult to understand for me. can you tell me what loop morph means and also what is meant by skin Drag.

I think you have a Lot of work with me

Cheers Holger

Paul Arden · Post by **Paul Arden** » Fri Sep 02, 2011 4:58 pm

This is loop morph http://www.sexyloops.com/picofday/sexyloops/sexyloops2.shtml ie, a loop that starts off round and turns pointed.

Skin drag is the friction caused on the line by the air as the line travels through it.

Is there any need for an abrupt haul stop at all?
What is there to gain?

I think it's how our bodies work when we run out of arm. We could try to slow the haul prior to the arm straightening but then we lose the remaining acceleration.

Cheers, Paul

Bernd · Post by **Bernd** » Fri Sep 02, 2011 5:06 pm

Paul Arden wrote:Now it appears that actually this is outdated thinking; the rod is a harmonic oscillator, it loads and unloads over a period of time and butt stop is irrelevant.

Hi Paul,
Gordy said he has given up trying to explain people the concept of the harmonic oscillator in fly casting.
In my book the concept of a flexibel leaver works very well with most students.
And I remember Gordy felt well with this concept still, too.

Probably in ten years the harmonic oscillator will be replaced by another even better concept to understand the smallest details of what really happens during the cast...

Btw can you throw V-shape loops of your hands (without a rod)? There won't happen any counterflex to open the loop

. Same result like with the broomstick: Damned pointy (v-shaped) loops.
Greets
Bernd

Paul Arden · Post by **Paul Arden** » Fri Sep 02, 2011 5:13 pm

Here's a super video from Gordy on the subject http://vimeo.com/24380785

(But my favourite is http://vimeo.com/16397298

)

Cheers, Paul

Holger Seipold · Post by **Holger Seipold** » Fri Sep 02, 2011 6:09 pm

so now it is more clear to me...

But the topic will not End for me...

Cheers Holger

WestCoast · Post by **WestCoast** » Sun Sep 11, 2011 4:34 am

I have tried the "double haul" technique a few times, totally unsuccessful!! Obviously, not everything can be learned over the 'net. I don't suppose that one of you internationally known, tremendously qualified, extremely patient and talented instructors could drop by for a few hours??

I could really use the help, the 'Pinks' are just starting to get their run underway!!

Holger Seipold · Post by **Holger Seipold** » Tue Sep 13, 2011 12:45 pm

Hi Guys,

Paul wrote

What we do know is that if the haul ends significantly before the rod reaches RSP then the loop tails.

but what's the reasen, why does the Loop tails?

Is ist because we've got to less velocity in the line or anything else???

Cheers
Holger :sick:

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