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Please help! Pulling and straight line path?

redcoat
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Please help! Pulling and straight line path?

Post by redcoat »

Ok, this is probably my biggest confusion right now...

Everything on here recommends "pulling". However, my interpretation of that term has led me to have my rod hand rotate around my shoulder, in a largely circular motion. I suspect that is not correct, as my rod tip does the same and throws my loops very wide, even if I don't take it back much past the vertical.

Can someone help me understand how "pulling" and the rod tip going on a straight line path can go together? Hope I am making my confusion clear?

This is also related to an earlier question of mine of laying the rod to the side. It seems like if you do that, it's far easier just to make your hand go in a straight line (especially if you "push" the rod back and forth).

Please help!!

thanks.
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Aitor
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Post by Aitor »

Hi,
First of all you must take into account that the term "pulling" as used on SL years ago was just a misinterpretation of the concept of "pulling the rod" by Mel Krieger.
What Mel wanted to convey by that term wasn't the use of a concrete style (as it was interpreted by SL) but something that now is being explained in a more precise way: late rotation (some instructors like to say "rotation at the right time"); whatever the words you use the concept is the same: rotate the rod just at the end of the stroke, not from the beginning.
Aitor is not like us, he is Spanish, and therefore completely mad.
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, Paul

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Morsie
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Post by Morsie »

I think we can use pull instead of drag and vice versa and I think there are two distinct style elements to pulling (dragging) and if you mix them up you'll be in trouble.

The stiff wrist style requires a downward pull in order to maintain some kind of slp.

A more lateral style of casting requires a more judicious use of the wrist and this will allow a flat pull and yet still maintain a slp.

Morsie
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Paul Arden
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Post by Paul Arden »

It's possible to pull the rod and rotate though the stroke as well as pull the rod to rotate late. If Mel was trying to teach delayed rotation then he did a very poor job of it! However I don't think he was, instead he was trying to make good use of the shoulder joint, as opposed to casting by applying the majority of force by extending the elbow.

Anyway be that as it may, to answer your question David, for most of our fishing casts we wish to throw the backcast above the horizontal and the forward cast below the horizontal (otherwise we end up in the situation where the loop is straightening some ten feet above the water!).

However, just because the hand is travelling down, doesn't mean that the tip has to do the same: the rod could have been laid back at 2am and stopped at 11 on the forward for example and the tip path would travel above the horizontal on the forward delivery!

Cheers, Paul
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Bernd
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Post by Bernd »

I don't think Mel was referring to rotate the rod in the last part of the stroke either.
In my understanding he was referring to pulling vs. pushing. I had a long discussion about it with him. And we both agreed that pulling simply is more effective in most situations.
Steve Rajeff likes to grab your rod just when you are going to accelerate into the forward cast. Due to the high resistance (if Steve holds your rod back it will be very high resistance :D ) everyone automatically goes over into a pulling movement.
Pulling to me means ellbow movement comes first. Then forearm, then wrist.

I like to call it "rotation at the right time" cause for wider loops I don't want the rotation be at the end of the stroke at all. Instead I rotate the rod during the whole stroke.

Rotation at the right time is to get the loop shape I want.
Late rotation is to form tight loops just.

I can't remember Mel was referring to that in any of his DVDs, videos or books? (I may not have everything he published in mind here)
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Bernd
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Marc LaMouche
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Post by Marc LaMouche »

hi David,
to get a better idea of the 'pulling' aspect, think of how a javelin thrower does the majority of the throwing stroke.
the hand is pulling the javelin in a straight line, its not being pushed.

https://vimeo.com/29041502

i know it's obvious but pulling is the opposite of stabbing/jabbing.
these movements are best 'felt' by pantomiming without a rod in hand.

cheers,
marc
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Aitor
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Post by Aitor »

Well, if you don't think that Mel's pulling was just a way (not a good one, for sure, but nobody is perfect) of saying late rotation just take a careful look at his Faults and Fixes DVD.
Years ago I had the same kind of debate inside CNL and Alejandro agreed. He also even told me that, when he asked Mel himself about the meaning of the concept, Mel used a fork (they were having lunch) to show rotation at the end of the stroke. Just as he demosntrates on Faults&Fixes.
Aitor is not like us, he is Spanish, and therefore completely mad.
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Bernd
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Post by Bernd »

Hi Aitor,
have watched the DVD again just now:
"Push vs. Pull Through" as he named that chapter in the DVD does not refer at all to loop shape or loop size being adjusted by rotation at the right time.
Instead he explains that the pulling motion does not result in a tailing loop if one overdoes it, while push through easily results in a tailing loop. He also explains that one gets more energy due to pulling than pushing.
I agree he shows also that pushing makes the rod usually rotate more early (by pantomiming the motion). But with no word he focuses on the effect by that on loop shape/size. So one would only realize it when already knowing it...
When I discussed the whole thing with him we did not realize the effect to loop shape either at the time.

Can we pull while rotating the rod during the whole stroke?

Can we push the rod while rotating the rod pretty late in the stroke?

To me the answer to both questions is yes.
So I understand pushing vs. pulling (efficiency) and rotation at the right time to be two different topics (which might be connected, yes).

Mel also did not mention the positioning/adjustment of the rotation for loop shape or loop size control in his book. For example on the PUALD he starts to rotate very early which I think (depending on the length of line) can be a huge disadvantage. Doesn't seem he was aware of that effect at that time?
The book+DVD is fantastic anyway.
Greets
Bernd

p.s.: First time I came in touch with the idea of rotation at the right time was on SL when Frank named it Late Butt Rotation. I remember it was a new concept to many of us at that time. Even though great casters did that by nature all the time for sure.
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Post by Magnus »

p.s.: First time I came in touch with the idea of rotation at the right time was on SL when Frank named it Late Butt Rotation. I remember it was a new concept to many of us at that time. Even though great casters did that by nature all the time for sure.


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redcoat
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Post by redcoat »

Thanks everyone - the light is beginning to come. I had a friend in England that "pushed" very clearly, and when I found this site, I think I interpreted "pull" as "pull the arm down" which translated into an arc, in reaction to what he did.

In light of all this discussion, what path should my rod *hand* make? Is it a straight line, just pulled rather than pushed?

many thanks
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Paul Arden
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Post by Paul Arden »

That depends on what you are trying to achieve, it can be straight, usually it's curved and sometimes it's Concave, ie Swoops. Generally speaking a good solid accuracy stroke has a curved hand path.

Cheers, Paul
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redcoat
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Post by redcoat »

Hmmmm...so here's where I get confused again ;) I hear all the time "the rod tip must travel in a straight line". But in this case it would be "curved"?

I'm still at the basic stage - trying to do the minpower exercise, trying to do the pick up and lay down cast, and trying to false cast with up to around 45 ft of line out. All with sexy loops ;)

Help to figure this out and understand what I *should* be doing with my hand and rod tip is much appreciated!
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Lasse Karlsson
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Post by Lasse Karlsson »

Hi David

You have to seperate handpath from tip path, they aren't equal, your rod bends :)

That means as Paul says, the hand path can be straight, curved or even wavy and the loops will still be fine!

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Paul Arden
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Post by Paul Arden »

The more force you apply and/or the more line you carry the deeper/greater the bend. Tip path and hand path are certainly not the same! Rod bend helps turn rotational butt motion into linear tip motion. Hopefully that makes sense, it was a light bulb for me when I first heard it.

Cheers, Paul
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Bernd
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Post by Bernd »

Hi David,
in regard what Lasse said about rod hand path and tip path here are some pictures that might help to understand how the relationship can look like. There are many ways how the relationship may look like in detail.

Image

Image

Image

Finally our rod hand path can be straight, concave, convex or a mix. What tip path exactly that'll give depends on tackle adjustments (line weight outside the tip + rod stiffness), on force application via rod hand as well as the size of arc being used.
That is why the (blue) quote of what Bruce Richard said in Lasses post (bottom) is indeed a very good one!

Greets
Bernd
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