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hauling for distance - lets talk about body movement

Michal Duzynski
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hauling for distance - lets talk about body movement

Post by Michal Duzynski »

Hi All
I know there was a lot of this on the board.
I did some videos of me casting distance, you cant see the distance , or lay out, but you can see how my body moves, connected to the fly rod, carring some long line while fals casting.
I did the videos, to show them to Akos and Paul, thinking ,that we might find the reason of recently broken rods, and ruined fly lines.
I would like to share them with you as well, maybe some of your comments will help.
The first set of videos ( sorry for the topless outfit- 40°C italian summer), casting was done with the finger on top" grip, which I thought was fine, later in Norway, talking to Paul, he prooved me wrong.
Thoose cast on the videos, went not bad, especialy with the tail wind. I dont know if you have any progrm to see it in slow motion?, Thing is that nothing was broken, and line had no scratch on it.

when you watch it with the quickplayer, and you press an arrow on the keyboard pointing right,it goes with slow motion

1) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B68j1yqZWrU
2) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fhkuL746TA
3) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGeKlMKlFdE
4) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2PhPGsOEsE
5) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xNffy8liPo

now this video,below, was done as a quicky today. After Norway, I cast like this, those movements, are 90% of my distance casts, the 10% is when I have a really good cast, and try to figure it out , what I just did right.

V-grip, on the back cast, Thumb on top on the forward cast, maybe u cant see it here, but I really feel, like I rotate and haul late.

With this grip configuration, I have noticed longer distance , and unfortunatly broken rods
6) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlzRl1CVbnk

Those two here , are new, on the previous one I feel like I keep my ellbow to low on the FC, so I tried to keep it higher, felt good acctually.but on the video it looks kind of wired, not right again, maybe it is the angle the video was taken from., but at the momemet, that is the only angle.
7) http://youtu.be/yyDb1om5t6g (after 3,30min something was on the lense)
8) http://youtu.be/BlxY45Pxe8Y
Dont get me wrong guys, Im not complaining about my distance, on a day when I broke SL rod , 90% casts were 115-120' range on a calm day, the 10% was a crap shit, but all with straight layout ( that is what thumb on top on the FC gives me).My main concern is , how to cast, or what to change in my casting stroke, to AVOID BREAKING THE ROD,
Dont want to get exuse here, but the rod ,the latest videos were made with, has massive cork grip, and Im loosing it after few fals casts, so not to loose it I grip it harder( but relese after the stop), so, there might be an issue as well.
I think that is enough for now.
thanks for your time of reading it , and watching it :p :p
cheers mike
Michal Duzynski
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Post by Michal Duzynski »

I think I did something wrong, as I cant open, the videos. will work on it later. be patient.
Maybe you know how to open them- that would help.
cheers
mike
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Paul Arden
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Post by Paul Arden »

The rod shouldn't break, of course they all do break. We need to have a look at the rod to see why it failed. I've been distance casting one since before Norway, it's been in hundreds of different hands and it hasn't blown up yet. So what we need to find out is if it was a fault in the rod, or if you we need to make you a stronger rod!

Cheers, Paul
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Paul Arden
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Post by Paul Arden »

I think I did something wrong, as I cant open, the videos. will work on it later. be patient.

You needed a space between 5)http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xNffy8liPo for example, otherwise it the board can't recognise it as a link!
Cheers, Paul
It's an exploration; bring flyrods.

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Bernd
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Post by Bernd »

Hi Michael,
did you try to put your index finger (when using the index finger on top grip) straight instead of curved?
Not that am saying this would always be the better way. But most students I offered to try changing from a curved index finger into a straight one told me to have a benefit afterwards.
Greets
Bernd
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Hal Jordan
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Post by Hal Jordan »

Mike - there is nothing obvious that I can see. It's a bit hard to tell but you do seem to be getting more counterflex on the last videos than the earlier ones but I've seen Paul and others get lots of flex/counterflex without breaking anything.

What rod and line are you using?

Does the rod break more on the forward cast or the back cast? At what point in the cast?i.e. middle of the stroke or end of the stroke?

Where does it break? Tip? Ferrule? Mid section?
Michal Duzynski
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Post by Michal Duzynski »

Hi All
Brend, I cast b4 Norway with finger on top ( index finger was straight), this gave me late rotation on the back cast, I kept it on the FC as well, thinking that it gives me kind of stubbing motion ( forward drift)
During my casting b4 WC, all was good, in Norway I was very exited, and I really wanted to do good, two days of practice on the platform, and I got pain in my wrist, starting from the finger and ending up in my forarm.
Talking to Paul, he said that if I manage to have late rotation for the distance ( the serious one) cast, I will be the first one,
Having a V grip on the BC, its only small degree of change from finger on top, and then its easier to change for the thumb on top on the FC ( I think I got it right).
Brend when you pantomime casting stroke without the rod ( the FC), if you place your thumb paralel to the ground and move forward you can keep it for longer period in horizontal position.
Try to do the same with index finger, straight from the begining the finger is pointig 45 deg up ( not forcing anything), which means that the rotation has already started, or will be acomplished sooner.
Those are my observations.

Hal Jordan, about rod breaking history
1) TCR, I fucked it up, I put some wax on the joinst
( supose to avoid breakage) , maybe I put to much, the conection get loose, 3 sections, moved out a bit from the butt sec , and buum, broken on the BC in the conection zone
Today has arrived the replaced section
2) Vision GT four four 9' #5, broken on the BC, 3/4 lenght of the butt sec, counting from the grip

3) 3 Section fly rod ( soft), we shouldnt, but we did cast distance with it, broken in the middle on the forward cast

4) SL rod, while casting , I thought I here something, looked at it close, bend a bit in my hands, nothing,then broken on the FC, in the tip section under the fourth guide ,counting from the top

Avarage line cary 80', max mesured ( knot on the running line), with controled loops 87-90', not on this videos,
Hal, the CF you talking about might be caused by many fals cast, I felt tired on the end, I did so many at once just to show you the body movements, normally goes after the third, max fourth one

Interesting thing is that the rod used on the last videos, is the Gilles CT series #6 3 pcs, bought in Australia for 80 euro, no a scratch, I will send it to change the grip, guides, and reduce the weight overall, we'll se what will come out.

cheers
mike
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Bernd
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Post by Bernd »

Michal Duzynski wrote:( index finger was straight)
Hi Michael,
is there a reason why in the videos your index finger wasn't straight but curved?

The rest makes sense to me.
Greets
Bernd
Bernd Ziesche
www.first-cast.de
Michal Duzynski
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Post by Michal Duzynski »

Hi Brend
I watched the videos again, I know what you mean now, that the finger was bended,not really glued to the grip.
Im not sure about the reason really, maybe it was easier to loose the grip this way after the stop, to try to minimize the CF, or maybe I just couldnt hold on to the rod carring a lot of line.
Will try to do it next time.
Cheers
mike
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Bernd
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Post by Bernd »

Hi Mike,
quite some percentage of my students switch to have the index finger curved like that when starting to learn fly casting using the index finger on top.
I see this very often with woman especially.
Maybe it is a reflex based on not being used to have significant force/pressure against the index finger.
So maybe it came to you when aerializing such high amount of line. Many casters do not realize they are doing it until I point it out.
After changing the index finger to be straight again almost everyone tells the straight finger to be better (less slipping off).
Anyway I would be fine if one finds it better to have the finger curved for whatever reason...
My index finger is little curved, too - but opposite direction :) :
Image
Greets
Bernd
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Marc LaMouche
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Post by Marc LaMouche »

great stuff Bernd and lots to think about. thanks for sharing it ! :)
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James9118
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Post by James9118 »

Bernd,

That's interesting. My other half starting using finger on top a while back. All was fine for a while until I noticed she was starting to bend her finger and push with the finger-tip. To me this looked like she had too much 'tension' in her hand i.e. not relaxed enough. She's switched to the v-grip since.
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Post by Michal Duzynski »

Thanks Brend
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Bernd
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Post by Bernd »

James9118 wrote:Bernd,

That's interesting. My other half starting using finger on top a while back. All was fine for a while until I noticed she was starting to bend her finger and push with the finger-tip. To me this looked like she had too much 'tension' in her hand i.e. not relaxed enough. She's switched to the v-grip since.
Hi James,
as I wrote: I see this significant often with women. Usually I ask them to keep the finger straight again for a few times and then they have it.
An important thing to talk about imo is that the index finger on top may "feel heavy/difficult" due to the fact that especially beginners have to use extra force application in order to get the fly to the same fish. That's how they compensate little less efficiency.
As soon as I help to increase efficiency and at the same time reduce force application the desire to curve the index finger seems to leave, too.
I really think that this is a "safety reflex" of our hand when using little too much force (for men: especially when using heavier gear).
Greets
Bernd
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Hal Jordan
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Post by Hal Jordan »

Michal Duzynski wrote: Hal Jordan, about rod breaking history
1) TCR, I fucked it up, I put some wax on the joinst
( supose to avoid breakage) , maybe I put to much, the conection get loose, 3 sections, moved out a bit from the butt sec , and buum, broken on the BC in the conection zone
Today has arrived the replaced section
2) Vision GT four four 9' #5, broken on the BC, 3/4 lenght of the butt sec, counting from the grip

3) 3 Section fly rod ( soft), we shouldnt, but we did cast distance with it, broken in the middle on the forward cast

4) SL rod, while casting , I thought I here something, looked at it close, bend a bit in my hands, nothing,then broken on the FC, in the tip section under the fourth guide ,counting from the top

Mike,

I see nothing to suggest a pattern there. I was hoping something might fit in line with some things I saw in your video.

What I did see from your videos:

- your backcast looks like the rod may actually be hitting the ground at times due to the amount of counterflex but it is hard to say for sure. If this was happening it would tend to show up (I believe) as broken tips. But only one of your rods broke at the tip...

- your delayed rotation on your forward cast is very extreme. It may be even more extreme than most other casters I've seen using a similar style. The greatest possible delay on rotation is what you want for distance but it would also create the maximum stress on the rod. If this was the issue then I would expect to see most rods break on the forward cast and in the butt to middle section. Again - no consistent data to support this...

- Your back cast is very loud compared to your forward cast. Is there a reason for that? I notice other distance casters have a louder back cast than forward cast but your's seems to be very pronounced.

These observations may mean nothing at all. They are just observations...

When the rods break do they break cleanly in a specific location. Do you have lengthwise cracks or splits in the rod?

By the way, you can call me Walter.
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