Principles - how many

Malik · Post by **Malik** » Fri Dec 21, 2012 1:05 am

Hi Aitor, Hi Bernd,

Thank you for the answer. I get it

Cheers

Malik

slack · Post by **slack** » Fri Dec 21, 2012 6:19 am

Could someone please tell me how you change the apex other than upward drift as the loop is forming. Is their anything else going on. Thanks slack

Ben_D · Post by **Ben_D** » Fri Dec 21, 2012 10:13 am

Pat of the rod tip on the way back mkes a big difference, this is tied to the lift.

Cheers

Ben

Bernd · Post by **Bernd** » Fri Dec 21, 2012 3:47 pm

Hi Slack,
I think drift is (mainly) to control the further development/positioning of the apex (just before the anchor kisses).
To aim my apex high or low I use:
a) tip speed
b) rod plane
to adjust the resulting tip path DURING acceleration into the D/V.

If I aim for highest possible distance my rod plane will be tilted more sideways and the tip speed will be very high.
Like Ben already marked: The longer the head will be, the easier the anchor will set down anyway. I don't have to tilt down the rod as much anymore as I would for the shorter head.
Lifting in the last third of the stroke on the long head will buy you important time!

Ben already mentioned the importance of the lift to tip trajectory/ tip path here.
Greets
Bernd

Paul Arden · Post by **Paul Arden** » Fri Dec 21, 2012 4:25 pm

Thanks Bernd, I don't make this adjustment. Only speed and trajectory of V setup. Fast takes a downward tip path. Slow an upwards curve. I drift up to maintain tension during Drag, but didn't know that it could maintain apex position. Will try this out and look for it.

Cheers, Paul

Bernd · Post by **Bernd** » Fri Dec 21, 2012 4:55 pm

Paul Arden wrote:Fast takes a downward tip path.

Hi Paul,
are you talking about a partially downwarded tip path here?

Otherwise a video (showing "the truth") maybe would show your tip not ending up on a downwarded tip path in the end of the stroke, I think?

That is a perfect example btw why I understand "back, back, UP" to be the most important concept.
"Up, down, UP" can also be fine...

Greets
B

Paul Arden · Post by **Paul Arden** » Fri Dec 21, 2012 6:43 pm

Yes it travels down. Then up. If I don't use speed it always travels up. I think maybe this is a source of confusion in Spey casting. Why do some instructors dip the rod while others don't? Dipping puts a wave in the anchor leg, that speed will force out through the line end. Less speed will result in a crashed anchor.

Cheers Paul

Bernd · Post by **Bernd** » Fri Dec 21, 2012 8:03 pm

I agree that this part of our different teaching concepts leaves confusiuon to many instructors.

Some teach:
"Up, Down,Up"

Others teach:
"Back, Back, UP"

Others teach:
"Up, Back, UP"

Ian Gordon told me about two poles standing on each side of the stroke. "Lift the tip to the top end of the first pole. Then draw a curve (down and up again) to the top end of the second pole." I call this "Up, Down, Up" (to keep it short).
Ian uses long heads, so he needs high line speed. The Down part secures him to not slip the anchor. And the (second) Up part (this is why I do not agree with: "Dipping puts a wave in the anchor leg") flatens out the anchor to make it land parallel/flat.

This technique also works on short heads but isn't really necessary in my experience.
For sure it can easily result in trouble here.
So I prefer to use:
"Back, Back, Up" (of course start with a lift).
Never go down again with the tip. This is what many instructors teach. Sure it's not the only way for a good Spey cast... and a good anchor set up...

To me the key is always in the very last tip movement in the back stroke. "Up" secures every cast to be fine in the end here.
It flatens the anchor and buys us time. So it is a great tool to control the cast (anchor).
Greets
B

Paul Arden · Post by **Paul Arden** » Fri Dec 21, 2012 8:20 pm

The way I look at it, is that the dip will put a wave in the anchor leg. If you use enough speed this wave will travel through the line. If you don't use enough speed the wave will result in a crash. BUT if you want to use speed then you must dip, otherwise you miss your anchor. I teach rising tip first, to almost everyone, and teach the dip to expert casters. Me personally I've learned it backwards but I know that's not how it should be structured and have had to learn the missing pieces since.

Cheers, Paul

Bernd · Post by **Bernd** » Fri Dec 21, 2012 8:37 pm

That is very similar to what I teach.
Besides I (since a while now) directly teach both ways.
At least I show both so everyone will know and understand...

It is not only in speed level.
I can drive my tip up, down and up again in slow motion.
Yes, it can be done by speed but also by how much upward you drive your tip in the end. Drive it up vertical and you do not need much speed (until you have long heads that is).
So it is speed and direction...
Or just velocity :p :kungfo:

Paul Arden · Post by **Paul Arden** » Fri Dec 21, 2012 9:17 pm

I learnt a great deal this year from Robert; it would be interesting to hear what he thinks!

Aitor · Post by **Aitor** » Sat Dec 22, 2012 1:28 am

Bernd wrote:Hi Slack,
I think drift is (mainly) to control the further development/positioning of the apex (just before the anchor kisses).

So when we make a reach mend (or reach cast or whatever you want to call it) we actually move the apex of the loop?
That would be an interesting HS video.

Bernd · Post by **Bernd** » Sat Dec 22, 2012 8:41 am

I was referring to D-loop casts / Spey casts.

Paul Arden · Post by **Paul Arden** » Sat Dec 22, 2012 11:19 am

Yes you can pull the wave out with a short head, that's for sure.

victor · Post by **victor** » Wed Dec 26, 2012 10:13 am

What gets the anchor in the right place on a switch or single spey, gravity and timing or the lifting of the rod tip? I keep hearing that the raising of the rod tip into the 'ready' position at the right time is what forces the anchor down to the water. Personally I don't buy it.

Mike

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