PLEASE NOTE: This is the Archived Sexyloops Board from years 2004-2013.
Our active community is here: https://www.sexyloops.co.uk/theboard/

Hand Path/Tip Path

Locked
Frank LoPresti
IB3 Member Level 1
Posts: 6259
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2003 7:38 pm
Contact:

Post by Frank LoPresti »

Stoatstail50 wrote:If rank beginners cast this way, how does the hand path effect the tip path ?

If it does, and I think we have established that you think it does, what would you ask them to do to reduce this effect ?
Because they radically rotate the rod when wristing or rotate the rod in a very wide arc with little angular acceleration. That's got nothing to do with hand path at all. To fix that problem you have to get the caster to stop waving the rod about such a wide arc and then get them to add the right amount of angular acceleration to an arc that leads to a less concave path of the rod tip. None of this of course has to do with hand path. Unless you consider the angular acceleration or the rotation of the rod butt to be hand path which it is not.

Frank
I would have a major effect on how I train instructors.
Paul Arden
Frank LoPresti
IB3 Member Level 1
Posts: 6259
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2003 7:38 pm
Contact:

Post by Frank LoPresti »

andy_with_a_rod wrote:
Just a simple no frills answer would be fine
thats rich coming from you of all people n :???:
Lighen up Andy. I was simply trying to make it a less obvious issue that rotational acceleration of the rod butt has nothing to do with hand path. I was simply taking the indirect approach but no one seemed to catch on.

Frank
I would have a major effect on how I train instructors.
Paul Arden
User avatar
Stoatstail50
IB3 Member Level 1
Posts: 2873
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2008 10:59 am
Location: Long lost in London
Contact:

Post by Stoatstail50 »

You don't think "waving the rod about" involves a hand path then ?

How do they wave it about without a hand path ? Just a wobbly wrist is it ?
Casting Definitions

Many men go fishing all of their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after.
Frank LoPresti
IB3 Member Level 1
Posts: 6259
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2003 7:38 pm
Contact:

Post by Frank LoPresti »

Stoatstail50 wrote:You don't think "waving the rod about" involves a hand path then ?

How do they wave it about without a hand path ? Just a wobbly wrist is it ?
I've actually never seen a caster with a wobbly wrist. What I see are casters that rotate the rod in a very wide arc, not an actual concave path of the rod hand. See the difference ?

Frank
I would have a major effect on how I train instructors.
Paul Arden
gordonjudd
IB3 Member Level 1
Posts: 2214
Joined: Mon Jul 10, 2006 12:14 am
Location: California
Contact:

Post by gordonjudd »

The portion of the tip path that has a direct bearing on loop formation is dominated by angular acceleration. That's the portion of the tip path that is important to loop formation.


Frank,

I expect you missed my question so I will ask it again. Thanks for taking the time to give a straightforward answer to a pretty basic question.

Wouldn't you want to increase the tip path range when the loop is being formed to include the time range from Max Rod Flex (MRF) to Max Counter Flex(MCF)? That is the time the butt rotation is being decelerated not accelerated.

However when you look at slow motion videos of loop formation it appears the tip path range from MRF to MCF is when the loop is being formed. Looking at Grunde's videos, I would even go a bit further and say the size of the loop is primarily determined by the tip path between RSP and MCF.

Do you see something different in those videos that would lead you to conclude that the path from the start of the cast to MRF is " the portion of the tip path that is important to loop formation"?

Gordy
"Flyfishing: 200 years of tradition unencumbered by progress." Ralph Cutter
Frank LoPresti
IB3 Member Level 1
Posts: 6259
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2003 7:38 pm
Contact:

Post by Frank LoPresti »

gordonjudd wrote:Wouldn't you want to increase the tip path range when the loop is being formed to include the time range from Max Rod Flex (MRF) to Max Counter Flex(MCF)?
Gordy,


Would I ? if so, why would I ? You tell me.

What I think is that the stop determines whether or not the shape of the loop face might be more pointed, rounded or tightly rounded. The video is but one cast.

What your seemingly trying to suggest is that the duration of the stop or length of the stop while the rod is being rotated to a stop determines the size of the loop.

What do you mean by size ? I look at loops and see wide loops that travel very far and narrow loops that travel as far.

How does lengthening the duration of the stop directly impact loop formation sans the superimposition of angular acceleration.

Frank
I would have a major effect on how I train instructors.
Paul Arden
gordonjudd
IB3 Member Level 1
Posts: 2214
Joined: Mon Jul 10, 2006 12:14 am
Location: California
Contact:

Post by gordonjudd »

Would I ? if so, why would I ? You tell me.

Frank,
Is that your version of a straightforward answer? I find that answering a question with a question is not all that productive.

You probably just skipped over this simple statement as to why you might want to increase the tip path range over which the loop is formed.

However when you look at slow motion videos of loop formation it appears the tip path range from MRF to MCF is when the loop is being formed.

What your seemingly trying to suggest is that the duration of the stop or length of the stop while the rod is being rotated to a stop determines the size of the loop.
and
What do you mean by size ?

No. I am saying that the "size of the loop is primarily determined by the tip path between RSP and MCF". I think most people would say the size of the loop is just the distance from to top leg to the bottom leg.

If you wanted to measure it accurately I would adopt Hendry's technique of fitting an ellipse to the loop and setting the size of the loop as being 2 times the semi-minor axis of elliptically shaped loop at MCF.

Gordy
"Flyfishing: 200 years of tradition unencumbered by progress." Ralph Cutter
Frank LoPresti
IB3 Member Level 1
Posts: 6259
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2003 7:38 pm
Contact:

Post by Frank LoPresti »

gordonjudd wrote:
What your seemingly trying to suggest is that the duration of the stop or length of the stop while the rod is being rotated to a stop determines the size of the loop.

the "size of the loop is primarily determined by the tip path between RSP and MCF".

Gordy,

If you think that the size of the loop is primarily determined by the tip path between RSP and MCF then what determines the path of the rod tip between RSP and MCF ?

I think specifically that RSP to MCF determines the shape of the loop as to how the rod is stopped, a slightly pointed or more rounded loop shape depending how the rod was stopped, and that in a general sense RSP to MCF is an indication of loop size as to rod action.

Overall loop size is determined by the path of the rod tip from the start to RSP as a result of positive acceleration.

I think that's always been the case and still is.

Frank
I would have a major effect on how I train instructors.
Paul Arden
Will
IB3 Member Level 1
Posts: 1334
Joined: Wed Sep 15, 2004 12:59 pm
Location: Edinburgh, UK
Contact:

Post by Will »

Is that your version of a straightforward answer? I find that answering a question with a question is not all that productive.


In which case, you're in the wrong place Gordy! :D

W.
Lineslinger
Barrio Pro-team
SGAIC
AAPGAI

"The only advice it is necessary to give the angler… is to avoid any approach to foppery, as trout have the most thorough contempt for a fop…”
WC Stewart
User avatar
Magnus
IB3 Member Level 1
Posts: 12097
Joined: Sat Oct 02, 2004 2:00 am
Location: Banff, Scotland
Contact:

Post by Magnus »

I think specifically that RSP to MCF determines the shape of the loop as to how the rod is stopped


Trying to work out what "as to" means in there Frank. This could just be a dialect thing. Would I be correct in translating that as 'due to' or 'because of'?

So am I right if I read it something like "I think specifically that RSP to MCF determines the shape of the loop due to how the rod is stopped"
and
"in a general sense RSP to MCF is an indication of loop size due to rod action."
Casting Definitions

"X-rays will prove to be a hoax."
"Radio has no future."
"Heavier than air flying machines are impossible."
Lord Kelvin
gordonjudd
IB3 Member Level 1
Posts: 2214
Joined: Mon Jul 10, 2006 12:14 am
Location: California
Contact:

Post by gordonjudd »

In which case, you're in the wrong place Gordy!

Will,

How right you are!

I think I will wait for the upcoming "Flycasting with a Fence Post" forum to get some more useful interactions with a different expert host.

Gordy
"Flyfishing: 200 years of tradition unencumbered by progress." Ralph Cutter
User avatar
Stoatstail50
IB3 Member Level 1
Posts: 2873
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2008 10:59 am
Location: Long lost in London
Contact:

Post by Stoatstail50 »

:)
Casting Definitions

Many men go fishing all of their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after.
Frank LoPresti
IB3 Member Level 1
Posts: 6259
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2003 7:38 pm
Contact:

Post by Frank LoPresti »

Gordy,

Perhaps you missed the fact that the question I asked earlier as to why I would want to increase the duration of the stop was a serious question, still is. My second question is what would be the effect of decreasing or increasing the duration of the stop on loop formation from RSP to MCF Both questions as it goes to loop formation and specifically it's size. Thanks !

The 3rd question is simple, if the size of the loop is determined, by as you contend the tip path between RSP and MCF, could you then considerably widen or narrow the physical size of the loop simply by how you decelerate the rod. That question is for anyone out there who can answer it.

Seems when I have a valid point to make like how the path of the rod tip from the start of the stroke to RSP determines the size of the loop, or that the shape of the loop face is determined by the stop, you seem to wander away from directly responding. I've seen this several times already most recently when you backed off from suggesting how an inclined hand path has some sort of bearing on the path of the rod tip as it goes to loop formation.

So while I admire your efforts to prove your contentions as to their validity, I suppose I might choose a fence post over your observations, at least a fence post is capable of supporting it's own position :D

Frank
I would have a major effect on how I train instructors.
Paul Arden
Will
IB3 Member Level 1
Posts: 1334
Joined: Wed Sep 15, 2004 12:59 pm
Location: Edinburgh, UK
Contact:

Post by Will »

So while I admire your efforts to prove your contentions as to their validity, I suppose I might choose a fence post over your observations, at least a fence post is capable of supporting it's own position
:D


:D

I worry that I might actually be starting to enjoy this! Is that wrong?

:D :blush:

W.
Lineslinger
Barrio Pro-team
SGAIC
AAPGAI

"The only advice it is necessary to give the angler… is to avoid any approach to foppery, as trout have the most thorough contempt for a fop…”
WC Stewart
Frank LoPresti
IB3 Member Level 1
Posts: 6259
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2003 7:38 pm
Contact:

Post by Frank LoPresti »

This is what happens when you ask a fence post to support it's own position. It remains intractably planted in the ground with no movement either way. Fence posts are very good at what they do. :D
I would have a major effect on how I train instructors.
Paul Arden
Locked

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests