I understand perfectly but I wanted to make clear least it cause any confusion for someone who might be reading this, to understand that that you fixed the tail because you got him to open up the arc.
On this you are completely wrong Frank. Once we had cleaned up the tail through adding some length to his stroke I got him to close his arc up because his loop size had a lot of room for improvement. By closing up the arc his loops tightened but the tail did not reappear.
Morsie,
For one thing, to say I'm completely wrong on this is neither here nor there and accomplishes nothing as far as I can tell.
Two things control the path of the rod tip as it goes to basic loop formation. Rod angle, and rotational acceleration though that angle. Adding length to that angle will not change the unique relationship between rotation and angular acceleration as it goes to tip path and loop formation. This is not about a dogmatic view either, it simply is what it is.
You have a cast and the line is tailing as the arc is to narrow for the amount of rotational force being applied, as it is to much force for that particular arc. The only way to remove that tail is to open up the arc a bit or spread that force out a bit more, this then has the effect of "matching" the arc to that same amount of force that is being applied to the rod by your caster.
Adding length to the size of the "original arc" does nothing. Well not exactly nothing, because you've then taken that "same force" and that same exact arc and spread that force out over a longer translational distance, and that same force will not be enough force to even cast the line efficiently and the result is a collapsed or weak cast.
It's easy enough to demonstrate as well.
The tail you cleaned up in one of two ways. You either got him to back off the power or you got him to open up the arc a bit. When you add length to the stroke for a cast that tails typically the caster does two things, they increase the rate of rotational acceleration and open up the arc a bit as a result lengthening the hand path. For some reason when you ask a caster to lengthen the stroke he increases the size of the arc somewhat as well. Sometimes the loops are pin tight too. And the tail goes away.
I'm guessing to the second part, but once you got him to close down the arc his loops went wide as you noted that his loop size noticeably had room for improvement. They went wide most likely because you closed down the arc size and when you do that, the caster then reduces the rate of rotational acceleration, and in effect adds to little acceleration for the size of the casting arc, which causes the loop to go wide for that arc, as the caster naturally reduces the rate of angular acceleration, which is exactly the opposite of what cause the loop to tail. After which as you now had him using less arc so you then most likely got him to increase his applied force over the reduced arc and as a result the loop narrowed down quite a bit.
Typically this is what I would expect to happen. Nothing to do with translation though. Many casters and instructors mistakenly think stroke length and casting arc as one and the same and they are not. It is perfectly reasonable to expect that a caster at some point in time should be able to change the size of the arc without changing the translation length of the stroke.
When you are truly going to fix anyones stroke you need to be looking at the casting arc and the rate of rotational acceleration. The problem is that the idea of Stroke Length means casting arc to many instructors like yourself and I have no problem with that. But as it goes to fixing tails "lengthening," of the arc approach is not what is actually fixing the problem. It's more effect, than cause.
Frank
With extreme wristers I use wrist wrap that tennis players use and and stick the rod butt in it. The loops get really nice after that, really nice
I would have a major effect on how I train instructors.
Paul Arden
The tail you cleaned up in one of two ways. You either got him to back off the power or you got him to open up the arc a bit.
No Frank, I got him to translate, to move his hand, to delay rotation and to follow through with his stroke length as he rotated. You (thank fuck) were on the other side of the planet and could not know changes were made, clearly you cant even imagine them......
Many casters and instructors mistakenly think stroke length and casting arc as one and the same and they are not.
Big call (and very patronising) saying that most instructors don't understand the difference Frank. And all my students get a very clear demonstration of the difference between the two and the role they play.
With extreme wristers I use wrist wrap that tennis players use and and stick the rod butt in it. The loops get really nice after that, really nice
So what does the student do then? He has rod strapped tight to his forearm what does he have to do to make a loop Frank?
So what does the student do then? He has rod strapped tight to his forearm what does he have to do to make a loop Frank?
Morsie
Is my point...to the above comment
Let me suggest this. "A number of better casting instructors use the terms stroke length and casting arc interchangeably."
"It is probably easier for an inexperienced caster to properly adjust stroke length than to adjust the casting arc size. Not that changing the size of the casting arc is difficult, but to get it just right, (independent of of stroke length changes ), to accommodate different degrees of bend in fly the rod takes some experience."
"For most casters, in most situations, changing the stroke length will automatically change arc size.. It is possible to vary these components independently, but the new caster, especially, will almost certainly change them together."
Once you tuck the rod butt end under the casters sleeve it restricts the wrist from over rotating and that has the immediate desired effect of narrowing the loop. Never is the rod butt strapped tightly. Untuck the rod from the sleeve and the caster better understands how not to over rotate the butt to much. This goes back and forth for a few times but gradually the wrist memory kick in and the caster learns not to over rotate the wrist. Been doing it for years and it works like a charm as long as your caster makes the connection between excessive wristing and wide loops, and controlled wrist rotation that tightens up the loop.
Frank
I would have a major effect on how I train instructors.
Paul Arden
I used to use a wrist strap Frank, now I just teach them to move their hand back and forth (to translate) as part of the total stroke then I close up their arc. Works beautifully.
If you have a caster that is badly over rotating the rod butt how does translation keep them from over rotating the wrist ? What I think of as over rotating is when the rod butt opens up more than 45 degrees from butt parallel with the underside of the forearm.
I would have a major effect on how I train instructors.
Paul Arden
Just try it on your next bad wristing student Frank. Get them to replace most of that rotation with translation and you'll have a cast beginning to form. But they will need to close up the arc.
Well if I have a choice I get them to control the wrist by maintaining a firm wrist. I just don't see how translation makes up for anything else mechanically speaking as it goes to tip path and loop formation. Beyond that I'm clueless.
Well not exactly Morsie, I'm only clueless as to how a scalar quantity such as translational length would have any bearing on the path of the rod tip as it goes to loop formation. That it does not, would be more to the point I suppose. Beyond that the argument for translation falls a little short of the mark as it goes to tip path and loop formation. The difference between two points is a straight line. How long is the line ? What does that line have to do with loop formation ? Nothing I suspect. That's what's funny about all this especially after 5 years of trying to suggest otherwise..
Frank
I would have a major effect on how I train instructors.
Paul Arden
Hi Frank, adding length means you can apply less force smoothly over a longer distance and get the same linespeed as if you applied a high force suddenly over a shorter distance.
Less force means less bend right ? so in this case adding distance will result in a cast where the concave tip path that caused the first loop is eradicated, not by changing the angle, but by changing the length and thus permitting a reduced force.
Stoatstail50 wrote:so in this case adding distance will result in a cast where the concave tip path that caused the first loop is eradicated, not by changing the angle, but by changing the length and thus permitting a reduced force.
Hey Mark,
Well I wouldn't think so. Length is scalar, as is distance, as is speed, as is force if the angle of force is an even multiple of 90 degrees. If the force that is being applied is scalar it has no appreciable effect on the bending of the rod and therefore would have no effect on tip path as it related to loop formation either. So no, by simply adding length to the tip path, either before or after the fact, you will not effect tip path. Which is why in Morsies example, translation alone would have had no effect on offsetting tip path, as it has no effect on tip path. It's ironic that well all use translation to some degree more or less and yet it actually has no bearing on tip path as it goes to loop formation.
Frank
I would have a major effect on how I train instructors.
Paul Arden
Stoatstail50 wrote:so in this case adding distance will result in a cast where the concave tip path that caused the first loop is eradicated, not by changing the angle, but by changing the length and thus permitting a reduced force.
Hey Mark,
Well I wouldn't think so. Length is scalar, as is distance, as is speed, as is force if the angle of force is an even multiple of 90 degrees. If the force that is being applied is scalar it has no appreciable effect on the bending of the rod and therefore would have no effect on tip path as it related to loop formation either.
:sick:
This post is great for the Technical Analysis forum. Great!
Aitor is not like us, he is Spanish, and therefore completely mad.
Cheers, Paul
No discutas nunca con un idiota, la gente podría no notar la diferencia.
Immanuel Kant
Well the tech boys have had very little success in the last 5 years of showing how translation alone effect's tip path and loop formation. I suspect there is a reason for that.
I would have a major effect on how I train instructors.
Paul Arden
