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Small hooks - Pullout/lost Frequency

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Eagle Crest
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Small hooks - Pullout/lost Frequency

Post by Eagle Crest »

I’ve spent most of the year fishing a hedged-bet dry fly setup, where I use a size 12-16 dry fly (EHC) and a short piece of tippet to a size 20-22 cripple, emerger, or prince nymph. My impression is that I’ve hooked more fish, and definitely more larger fish. I’ve even gone to using a size 18-20 prince nymph on my nymphing setups. I would say that I am catching 60% of my fish on the tiny fly, and 40% on the larger fly. I’m fishing rivers for the most part.

What I am experiencing is, on the larger fish, if I hook them with the larger fly, the percentage I bring to hand is 90%. If I hook them on t he smaller fly, my ‘to hand’ percentage is half or less than that on t he larger fly. I think the thin wire hook is cutting through the tissue and pulling out rather than them just throwing the hook. Anybody have similar experiences or opinions?

I understand that I could fight them more gently and longer, but it already takes quite a bit of time to bring the ones I do get, to the net, and I just don’t want to work a big fish to extreme exhaustion. Of course I hate to lose a fish, but it has been quite gratifying to entice more strikes from those larger, wiser fish.
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flyfishwithme
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Post by flyfishwithme »

Hi Eagles Nest,

I have fished small dries most of the time this year. Size 18 has been big for me and I have landed some awfully large fish.

I haven't experienced the same problem, but that could be of the type of hook that I use - Partridge SLD. It seems to penetrate well and holds on.

Mind you I am not sure that is even a good thing and we could open up a whole debate on the pro's and con's of barbless hooks. Let's not go there. :D

In the days that I did autopsies on fish (read - kill them and look at what they are feeding on) i was extremely interested in the size of the food chain and not the type.

This is because I felt that a general pattern would work throughout many of the hatches that I came across and it was size that made the difference. Over 40 years I think I am right.

Anyway, the average size was 5mm. Now that is small. So a size 14 hook is pretty large. Another way of testing this is to chuck out a fly that you think matches those insects on the water. Voila.. it looks twice the size. The point is that I am not surprised that you are getting a higher hook up using smaller flies.

When I was guiding I used to tell my clients, select a fly and then go down a size (or even two) if you want to get close to the hatch.

Add small flies to a long leader - I use 5m leaders in all types of rivers and small streams - and the hook up goes higher.

Perhaps, to answer your question, maybe it is the type of hook that you are using. Have you tried some of the barbless hooks made in Europe (I am thinking about the Czech republic) as they have a longer point section and may hold better by digging in further than those that your are currently using?

FFWM
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Marc LaMouche
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Post by Marc LaMouche »

hi Steven,
regarding your dropper fly, i'd experiment with different hook designs and wire diameter, probably something thicker and with a wider gape as well.
what works very well for me on the dropper (considering i never use barbed hooks) are medium-heavy wired grub hooks.
also, since it's a wet/nymph you could always use the same hooks but 1 to 2 sizes up (bigger) while keeping the same materials proportion as with the 'normal' fly.
it may look a little weird to the fisher but the fish don't seem to notice. ;)

it's rather impossible to state but i seriously doubt your hooks are pulling through but rather that the point isn't going in some of the harder parts of the fish's mouth because most hooks in that size just don't have a long enough point-to-bend length. another bonus point for the longer point barbless hooks !

cheers,
marc
Eagle Crest
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Post by Eagle Crest »

Hi FFWM,

I don’t tie my own flies, so I have no idea what hooks are being used. But, you bring up a good point about the better performance Partridge SLT hooks. For many years now, I have fished most mayfly and little green stone fly imitations at size 16 and 18. Green Drakes and March browns are the exceptions for the mayfly sizes. I fish barbless, too, but I can usually tell a thrown hook versus what I believe is a pull-out. I’ve also had several fish recently caught on the smaller flies, that when I got them to the net, they were held by a mere flap of skin. I understand if I allow slack, the fish can and often throw the hook. Rainbows that go aerial a bunch of times, throw hooks way more often than browns that tend to stay under the surface. If I start having fish throw hooks on the same setup, I check the point, and it usually is bent or dull, or in the case of cheap hooks, the hook bend has bent opened. All of that makes sense. It’s when I have kept steady pressure, lose the fish, and the hooks come back shape and in good shape, then I begin to wonder. The bigger the fish, the more often the loses, and the hooks come back in good shape.

And, I agree with you about the size of the size of food that fish consume. In early July each year, I fish a lake with my father, who has to keep his fish. When we clean them, they are typically full of midge larva in the 4-6mm range. So, I put on my nymph rig, a 20-24 midge or callibaetis nymph, and I catch lots of large trout, to the amazement of the worm drowners.

Each year, I try to focus on something different, 4 years ago I did light Cahill’s (we have quite a long hatch periods of PED’s and PMDs) and muddlers at a snails pace on still water, 3 years ago I swung soft hackle wetflies, 2 years ago I did terrestrial dry patterns and wet-fly egg patterns on rivers and Louisiana saltwater, last year I did purple haze flies and humpies for fresh water and Pacific saltwater, this year it was hedged bets with tiny cripples and emergers, next year maybe I’ll regress to pellet flies, powerbait flies or DuPont streamers.

So, again, thanks for the feedback.

Steve
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Malcolm
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Post by Malcolm »

Eagle Crest,

When I fish small hooks I use 3x short shanks. So a size 16 is the equivakent of a size 19. This gives a bigger gape.

Secondly I always twist the hook so that the point is slightly off set. This works well for me and despite my initial concerns yje off setting does not seem to affect hook strength. Of course the fish I catch are normally under 2lbs and only a few each season are over 4lbs. So it may be different if you are in a big fish area
Eagle Crest
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Post by Eagle Crest »

Hi Malcolm,

I have similar fishing through the summer months, most less than 2 lbs and few not more than 4lbs, if that. I don't really know where the big browns go in the summer, but they are rare. The rainbows and white fish top out at about 2 lbs. In November and the first two weeks of December, when the browns are spanning and the flow in the river is up (they return the irrigation water to the river Oct. 15th), I catch some big ass hawg browns on streamers, and between the high flow, and the strength of 4-6lb browns, my problem is breaking the tippets or knots. Then in the March and April, we have a Skwala stonefly hatch and the big browns are willing to play on dry flies for 3-4 weeks. Then they scatter and don't want to play. In the summer, we have a number of nesting pairs of Osprey, and quite a few otters and minks all year. I think when the river level drops to summer levels, they turn extremely cautious. They don’t old and large by being careless. But, it felt like I hooked one of those large browns last week, about a half an hour after sundown and on the 20 olive emerger. It had the characteristic rise ring of a big fish, it made 2 big long runs, and when I got it to roll on the surface, it looked like a small steelhead in length. Nice fish. Then as I got it back close to me after the second run, and expecting a third run, my hook came out. This type of thing happened several times this year, and, if it’s what we have to live with when using the small hook size, then I’m okay with that. If I can get a tip or two from somebody, such as the Partridge SLT hooks, or offset the hook, and improve my big fish to hand, all the better.

Thanks,

Steve
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