Starting with the Roll Cast

[Snake Pliskin]

I'm not so sure Marc and Jo! Paul will probably pop in and say he loves teaching the roll cast on grass however...

People learn in different ways, but I think it's really really difficult to learn how the roll cast feels on grass. I often see a different "grass" technique which often doesn't translate onto water. In fact I've seen that a lot! From a purely visual point of view, I think sometimes the technique used to demo the cast on the grass looks very different to a student than on the water.
I'd love to see an A and B video of the grass and water roll cast demo. With a usual amount of line out of the rod tip. I'm sure someone can do it brilliantly and I'll look like a chump, but I choose not to teach something that looks and feels different than what someone will use fishing if I can help it.

[Stoatstail50]

Not in mine.....

that's 'cause you don't like it

It's because its different and I dont like it...do you teach a Single Spey in the gym ?

[jomeder]

Hi Snake,

You're certainly right that the feel of the cast is different on the grass and on the water. I would always say it's preferable to teach it on water, but I've only ever really taught on the water once.

What you say about technique is something which occurred to me too. As far as I'm aware I use the same technique for it on both though. I think the drag makes for a better cast. Video would certainly be interesting, I was thinking that tonight while doing my routine under the streetlight :-).

I must say I haven't had the chance to follow up with students how they've taken what I've taught to the water.

I've been thinking about why I don't like the idea of teaching a roll cast first. I guess a lot of that is because I don't use a "pure" roll cast much in my fishing. I do use it almost always for a roll cast pickup, but only occasionally for limited backcast space and such. When I do it's probably on lakes. Roll casting to sighted fish in moving water isn't something I do much of.

I have seen a few people at lakes roll casting madly to not much effect. One of them I knew so I asked how come they were roll casting so much and they said it was because they'd had a lesson and felt the roll cast was easiest. Unfortunately they were finding it a bit frustrating mainly due to the wind blowing out the cast and blowing the D loop around the undergrowth on the banks. It's pretty windy around here a lot of the time. For sure that makes overhead casting difficult as well, but I think even with the wind on the casting shoulder it can be more effective.

Regards,

Jo

[andy_with_a_rod]

Mark, this might work for you. I havent tried it on a pupil yet but i tried it on me and it kinda worked, but needs improving.
instead of 9' of mono leader use 5' of thick wool to a 4' mono leader. the wool grips and catches on the grass and nearly re-creates the stick of an anchor on water.

i dont like roll casting on grass either, but I do think its very possible, and easy to teach.

Have you ever noticed how when you take a pupil from water to grass they all of a sudden struggle to lift the line off the water into the backcast? i guess its the same anchor problem, slippery grass makes you lazy when lifting off.

[Will]

I'm with Snake and Stoats.

I can teach the roll cast on grass, but I have to add some caveats as I go along as to how it differs on water, which isn't ideal. To get a good forward loop with standard kit on grass I either need to slide lots more line behind me than I would on water, or anchor the fluff somehow.

I'd be interested in seeing a video comparison too.

Andy's idea of a wool leader is nice. As is using an MPR I guess.

W.

[andy_with_a_rod]

well obviously i stole the wool idea from the MPR, its just hard to find 120' of MED tapered wool......

and while we're talking about teaching, i always give a pupil the MPR before they get a go with a proper rod. this means when I demo roll asts I dont fuck up either. Nothing worse than seeing a "teacher" mess a cast up in the first few minutes of a lesson!

[Snake Pliskin]

I guess a lot of that is because I don't use a "pure" roll cast much in my fishing. I do use it almost always for a roll cast pickup, but only occasionally for limited backcast space and such.

It's still a roll cast, just with an overhead cast stuck on the end! The roll cast pickup is a gem. Like I said I don't teach the roll cast first, I prefer to start with drills into overhead casting. But when we've got the roll cast sorted, I'll try and teach the roll cast pickup depending on what kind of fishing they're doing. It's such a good way to fish the fly almost to your feet and still have a working amount of line out of the tip rather than having to struggle to false cast line out. If someone is fishing upstream on rivers, letting the line just float towards you forming a D loop before rolling it up and into an overhead cast might be tricky for me to teach on grass. As OE show's a beginner could manage this and their life might be easier.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-cS93AWpII
Each to their own I suppose, and obviously some people don't have much water nearby. I'm lucky in that I've got access to a river, a lake with a casting platform, and a load of grass within easy reach.

[Stoatstail50]

Mark, this might work for you. I havent tried it on a pupil yet but i tried it on me and it kinda worked, but needs improving.
instead of 9' of mono leader use 5' of thick wool to a 4' mono leader. the wool grips and catches on the grass and nearly re-creates the stick of an anchor on water.

i dont like roll casting on grass either, but I do think its very possible, and easy to teach.

I usually stand on it or use a wee loop and a biro to anchor it, either way this makes it slightly less of a PIA...Mike has a nifty fluff trapper that works great too...if you use these things then you can begin to teach it properly.

If you take a test on grass you may be expected to perform a 50+ roll cast with the same kit that you use for the rest of the exam ie. not with 5' of fluff....it is not easy to make that cast look good if you don't poke a load of line behind you, take a step or two forwards and perform half a flick flack as you make your casting stroke...

[Marc LaMouche]

flick-flack is sexy :p

do you teach a Single Spey in the gym ?

sure, why not ? if a roll cast works well then it isn't any different afaic.

as far as at it not being exactly the same as on water, slide, bigger D, extended arm movement, etc, of course i agree. it's so obvious i didn't feel the need to mention it.
however i don't see a problem with that as it also teaches to adapt to the situation and to me this fits in perfectly with the fact that fly casting is a constant variable.

lastly, there's a practical issue as water isn't always available. around here it's rather solid these days.

cheers,
marc

[Stoatstail50]

flick-flack is sexy :p

Not if you're 6' plus and 250 lbs its not...

[kenmorrow]

I prefer to teach all casts on the water. That's the most realistic setting you can get, so why not?

Well, it isn't available a lot of the time for many people. That's why.

I'd be interested in the private answers from everyone participating in this discussion to the poll question: what does a caster do differently to execute a basic overhead cast and a basic roll cast? Private because there'd be no "yeah, what he said!" effect.

But the only things we do differently when executing a roll cast vs. an overhead cast is the amount of energy we put into the rod for the backcast and (thus) the pause timing of the backcast. Nothing else should change.

To say it another way...we simply don't lift the line off the water for the backcast and we form an under-handed loop with a water anchor instead of an overhead loop with an aerial (inertial) anchor.

[jomeder]

Hi,

Sorry to Eric for further going in the direction away from the questions he was asking.

Yesterday I went and did some roll casting on a pond and today I did some more on the grass to try and compare the two. First off I'm not making any radical departures in my stroke between the two. Up to about 30' the casts are virtually identical. I don't really use drag with that distance.

Out past 30' is where I start to introduce more drag in the grass cast because although you can still make a nice cast with a "normal" stroke on the water I think you need a bit more line behind you on the grass. I'm putting a few feet more line behind me on the grass than I'd need to on the water. In terms of drag I'm using about 6" of linear hand movement. If you were doing this on water with a nice clear bank then you can do exactly the same cast. I was doing it around a pond with patches of reeds and a less than manicured bank so in some cases I did want to place the anchor further out and not have too much line on the bank.

I don't consider the strokes to be different enough that I'd say I have a particular grass cast technique which doesn't translate well to the water. I don't think I'd be misleading a student by teaching them the stroke with a bit of drag. It's not suitable in all situations on the water, but you can certainly teach the fundamentals of a roll cast on the grass and get students making nice roll casts with good form. Anyway, you shouldn't be afraid to adapt your stroke :-).

Mark mentioned the 50' roll cast in the CCI test. I did my CCI test on the grass. That roll cast was really causing me some consternation at first, it seemed a bit far on the grass especially without a haul. However I practiced it a lot and got it sorted out, no special contortions or skipping back and forth required aside from reaching back a bit more and really extending the drag to a late rotation. Chris helped me out with an observation the night before that I was rolling my hand in a bit on the forward cast. Rectifying that helped with the accuracy because of course it was causing a slight hook.

Ken, I'm not sure I completely agree with you about there not being some difference between an overhead and roll cast. I like to teach that the backcast starts with a sweep with the rod canted out to the side, before bringing it more vertical for the forward cast. This is so the anchor is positioned somewhat away from the plane of the forward cast. It's less disconcerting when the line comes back toward you, keeps the flies safely away if they flick up on the forward cast and helps to avoid crossing over the anchor. For me that sweep makes it quite different from a basic overhead cast if you're inclined to cast in a vertical plane (I'm a natural side caster :-), and much more similar to an elliptical sort of cast. Other than that I'd go along with what you say.

Regards,

Jo