Cast & Release

Merlin · Post by **Merlin** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 8:19 am

Hi everybody

An estimate of the average reaction time to a visual stimulus (e.g. the rod is at RSP) is about 200 ms (=0.2 s). The difference in time with RSP for the release at MCF is about 0.04 s (0.30 – 0.26) in Lasse’s video, so a caster anticipates the release timing through learning obviously. The second release, I agree with Tom and Bernd, is very close to RSP but not really before. Would it be possible to anticipate it by 0.04s before RSP to see what’s happening? It is a significant step backwards; the rod is under its unloading phase at 0.22 s. Maybe at 0.24 s would be achievable, at the very end of the unloading. I wonder here if what we call releasing before RSP is really what is happening or what we think is happening. It is more a release at RSP, even if our brain sends the order before.

In my case I am pretty sure I release after RSP, at MCF or so likely, especially when hauling as mentioned by Tom, maybe it happens as I feel the line is pulling on my hand, I just make that unconsciously. If the maximum pull on the line happens exactly at RSP, the time for my brain to catch the signal and for my hand to let the line go under the order of my brain might well be in the range of 40 ms. It seems to me very difficult to control the release of the line as the rod is unloading, maybe it would need to refer to my wrist motion to start the release process (identify the proper timing physically, get the message to the brain, get the return message from the brain, and release the line by opening the hand).

Merlin

Rasmus · Post by **Rasmus** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 9:36 am

I am back in Denmark again...
Lots of new posts in this thread, thanks !

I will contact Lasse and try to find a day to try the setup :;):

Rasmus · Post by **Rasmus** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 9:44 am

Tom wrote: Releasing the line at RSP. and not to mention before RSP,
is in my opinion something that a lot of us think we do.
Releasing before RSP is a very strange feeling.
Most of us haul through the stop.
Just try it,and make sure you really relase before RSP.
It is not as easy as it seems.
Cheers
Tom.

Releasing early is a very strange feeling for sure, it feels wrong in the beginning, like loosing control... but when the timing is right it feels right...

A flyfisher i met on my trip to Norway tried it, and said:
"It worked, but it feels really wrong... the strange thing was that my cast was longer than usual and the leader straightened, but i will just keep on like i am used to, it is too hard for me to get the timing right..."

as you say... it is not as easy as it seems... !

wjc · Post by **wjc** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 1:05 pm

Here are the frames just before and at Lasse's release. It certainly looks to me that the release is just before RSP.

I am still seeing a bend in the lower picture going upwards not down.

Cheers,
Jim

Tom · Post by **Tom** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 1:31 pm

Jim,
I can see the bend too,but I can not see the release of the line.

Tom.

Tom · Post by **Tom** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 1:56 pm

Nothing special about it,but it seems natural there is different
ways of release.
http://www.youtube.com/user/SuperRattus#p/a/u/1/z5WvDCg1etU
http://www.youtube.com/user/SuperRattus#p/a/u/2/OOl4hOXQdr0
http://www.youtube.com/user/SuperRattus#p/u/6/CH6H2CxbK1M
Take a close look at the way Nielsen release the line.
He is not the only one that release the line with a forward motion.
So when does he release the line?

Tom.

wjc · Post by **wjc** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 3:55 pm

Tom,

In Lasse's second cast, there has been unmistakeable and obvous movement of the line marker the fourth frame from when the light came on. At 210F/sec this amounts to roughly 20 milliseconds.

That is actually way faster than I had expected. It is possible that my software dropped some frames, but I don't think so. Lasse has the original, and he can tell us.

Nonetheless, there is no question whatsoever in my mind that Lasse released that second cast when the light came on.

Those three links you provided are exactly the reason I put together the light. There is no way in any of them to pinpoint the release.

Cheers,
Jim

Tom · Post by **Tom** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 5:01 pm

Jim,
What does the light signal tell you?

Tom.

gordonjudd · Post by **gordonjudd** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 7:03 pm

So when does he release the line?

Tom,
The line release of Eirik Hernes Larsen made me aware of another factor that affects when the line will start to drop relative to the time it is released.

At the time he opens the pinch point between his thumb and finger at around frame 119 his line hand is still moving back and up as shown below:

Thus in the next frame the line continues back and up because of the momentum it had at the point of release.

It is hard to see the line in my copy of the file I downloaded from You-tube because of the compression they use, but It does not appear the acceleration from gravity and the tension in the line is sufficient to reverse the +y and -x velocities and cause the line to drop and start forward until around frame 126 as shown here:

I assume this video was taken at 300 fps, so that means there was a delay of around 7/300 (20-25 ms) before there was a noticeable drop in the line from the time it was released.

That is smaller than the 35 ms delay Lasse got in his video, but I now can see that if the line hand is still moving at the point of release the line will not start shooting forward instantly as I previously expected.

Thanks for shedding some light on this subject.

Gordy

wjc · Post by **wjc** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 7:45 pm

Tom,
Here are some pictures which can explain better than me.

Both the button and the microswitch it pushes on are spring loaded. Releasing the button turns on the light. The light stays off until the button has gone 0.030" then comes on. The button continues for another 0.030" until it stops.

The pictures show the button both fully extended and fully depressed. Lasse is holding the line between the button and his thumb.

Cheers,
Jim

Tom · Post by **Tom** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 7:53 pm

Thanks Jim.
Very well observed Gordy.
Does the moment of release matters at all?
As long as it after RSP.
Think about it.

Tom.

Bernd · Post by **Bernd** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 11:02 pm

Hi Jim,
if that is before RSP then nobody will ever release at RSP for sure

.
To me that is around RSP.

Greets
Bernd

Bernd · Post by **Bernd** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 11:17 pm

Hi Gordy,
great analysis. That was why I added: Lasse was hauling a longer distance in the first cast which might stay for little higher momentum, too.
This momentum has to be overcome anyway...
And I think depending on the cast it will happen due to gravity or by the main momentum of the fly line outside the tip (not the part just in front of the tip (around RSP)).
So in my understanding the line has to pass the tip significally to overcome this momentum (down the guides) and move the line opposite direction.
I think it will start to happen when the line just in front of the tip will have a small angle with the rod (seen in straight position).
Greets
Bernd

gordonjudd · Post by **gordonjudd** » Sun Jul 31, 2011 6:32 pm

So in my understanding the line has to pass the tip significally to overcome this momentum (down the guides) and move the line opposite direction.
I think it will start to happen when the line just in front of the tip will have a small angle with the rod (seen in straight position).

Bernd,
I am not sure what point you are referring too in that statement. Is it when the line is just ahead of the tip after RSP1 as shown below:

Or when the line ahead of the rod is nearly in line with the rod tip? That point happens after MCF as shown here:

As best as I can tell Lasse released the line on his delivery cast at frame 927 (92 ms after RSP1) as shown here.

In Lasse's cast the line marker was still coming towards the tip 50 ms after RSP1, but then it went out of frame so I could not measure when it reversed direction and started to shoot.

Gordy

wjc · Post by **wjc** » Mon Aug 01, 2011 1:56 pm

Tom wrote:Does the moment of release matters at all?
As long as it after RSP.
Think about it.

That's what this whole thread is about!

The Archived Board

The Archived Board

Cast & Release

Who is online