Cast & Release

[Rasmus]

Now i have been Salmonfishing for some weeks and have used the "Cast & Release" technique i described in this (long) topic:

http://www.sexyloops.co.uk/cgi-bin....04;st=0

I have tried to explain and show it to several other flyfishers but they don't really get it.

Two have learned to cast with a release and no stop:
1: a young local boy (14) who had been instructed by a really competent instructor without learning to cast a doublehander, he thought he would never learn it.

I tried to learn him casting without stopping and because he had never really tried with his rod, he had no fails to get rid of. After less than an hour he was casting perfect single and double speycasts, that many grown casers would envy... without a stop!
I took him to the other side and said that he should try left hand before starting to doublespey, he said that it would be impossible for him. I told him to remember what i learned him and try to do excactly the same with left hand... first cast was perfect... no problem.

2: Today a guy i know from Sweden was fishing, he is a very competend that has turned from whole speylines to trying shootingheads this season. He said that he had to change his technique to only use the lower hand (like underhandcasting) to get a tight loop. I tried his rod and threw a really narrow loop with a usual speycast (or what i cast). He was surprised. I told him about "Cast & Release" and showed him a cast against the wind with 1 meter overhang and a release insteadt of a stop. He understood the logic about it and tried and it worked for him to his big surprise.
After he said that it was the first time since he learned casting that any one had been abe to teach him something new about casting...

Another thing was that i tried his rod and another guys rod and with no problem was casting good long casts with the "Cast & Release" technique. Even though i had never been casting with their rods before.
Fast rod, slow rod, long rod, short rod it desn't matter.

:whistling:

[Viking Lars]

Sounds interesting - can you post a video?

Lars

[Ben_D]

Hi Rasmus,

Interesting that this has come up again just now, something I am playing about with too. When throwing a DHD for distance I come right through with the rod and release line to set loop trajectory, works well with long shooting heads but is more difficult for me with more conventional fishing gear to get consistent results.

Cheers

Ben

[Rasmus]

Sounds interesting - can you post a video?

Lars

I have tried to take some video, but i have come to the conclusion that you cant show this technique so that others understand because it is a splitsecond of the timing of the cast that makes the difference.
On the video it just looks like a normal good cast.

Thats why it is so difficult to learn other flyfishers, you have to understand the logic of this small difference of the cast in your mind to do it...

(With a fast singlehand rod the loop gets too tight if you dont do something to open it, i tried today with my TCR and the fly was almost hitting the line with the tightets loops)

[Rasmus]

Hi Rasmus,

Interesting that this has come up again just now, something I am playing about with too. When throwing a DHD for distance I come right through with the rod and release line to set loop trajectory, works well with long shooting heads but is more difficult for me with more conventional fishing gear to get consistent results.

Cheers

Ben

I think that it s because you and i have been casting too much with a stop included n our memory.

The young boy had no idea of casting at al so he didn't know anything about a stop.

My problem with this technique is that my muscle and mind memory comes back when it is difficult conditions (strong wind up or downstream) i use more power and make a harder stop... and i regret it every time because now i know that i didn't release, i made a stop and i would have made a better cast without it...

I really got happy when this young kid learned to cast without a stop so fast... and a little sad thinking of all the years of fishing i have been casting with a stop, because all books, videos, casting instuctors and so on told about the stop...

I feel it in my back and neck, but even now i often have to think and slow down when using this "Cast & Release", because so many years of muscle and mind memory is difficult to get rid of...

[Rudi Ferris]

Hi Rasmus,

I believe you are correct; video wouldn’t show a thing. I’ve had a conversation over in the Tech. Forum about this and as far as many engineers are concerned, there HAS to be a stop, or a deceleration, then the release. I doubt they are right but they may be.

But it doesn’t matter because the value of what you say --- and it is highly valuable --- is more mental than physical. Once a caster has completely eliminated the idea of a stop on the delivery stroke, their release will be much better timed and their power, speed and distance will be immediately improved.

This is one of the epiphanies (a sudden intuitive leap of understanding) of flycasting. That's why you are so amazed and excited by it. To this degree, it is a wonder this isn’t actively and widely taught. In truth, I think a fair amount of "experts" don't realize this aspect of casting.

Cheers, Rudi

PS….Yes; one wants to avoid a too tight of shooting loop. Pointed yes, too narrow, no. Just more opinions

[Rasmus]

Hi Rasmus,

I believe you are correct; video wouldn’t show a thing. I’ve had a conversation over in the Tech. Forum about this and as far as many engineers are concerned, there HAS to be a stop, or a deceleration, then the release. I doubt they are right but they may be.

But it doesn’t matter because the value of what you say, and it is highly valuable, is more mental than physical. Once a caster has completely eliminated the idea of a stop on the delivery stroke, their release will be much better timed and their power, speed and distance will be immediately improved.

This is one of the epiphanies (a sudden intuitive leap of understanding) of flycasting. That's why you are so amazed and excited by it. To this degree, it is just amazing this isn’t actively and widely taught.

Cheers, Rudi

PS….Yes; one wants to avoid a too tight of shooting loop. Pointed yes, too narrow, no. Just more opinions

Thanks Rudi!!!

i have been trying to control my selve from the first time i cast that way by a "mistake" in 1997... (But the memory of 100.000 cast before that isn't easy to get rid of) but i'm still improving...

I know that you know what i'm talking about from the earlier topic...

N.B. I'm not so amazed about it anymoren i'm using it... i'm amazed that almost or every casting instructor, book, video (and i have seen loads of youtube videos with good casters to check it out) always include or make a stop in their teaching or show off !!!

It 's another way of thinking... and a very small detail difference to a "normal" cast that (as you say) improves distance, speed, fighting against wind, delivering the fly at a straight leader every time and most important with less power.

Thanks for your support on this weird topic for a flyfisher (not a technical caster) !

[Rudi Ferris]

Rasmus, this may help:

Always break your wrist as the final stroke movement of the delivery. Get your brain focused on that snapping wrist (even if only a little bit) and the hauling hand splaying the fingers to release the line.

It may work, but then again you may have to find your own little mantras :p

Good luck! Rudi

[Rasmus]

Rasmus, this may help:

Always break your wrist as the final stroke movement of the delivery. Get your brain focused on that breaking wrist and the hauling hand splaying the fingers to release the line.

It may work, but then again you may have to find your own little mantras :p

Good luck! Rudi

You and i are on the dark side of flycasting here...

Not many that understand us ... (and they teach casting) :whistling:

He, he...

[Rudi Ferris]

But they are very good teachers, Rasmus.

I think we are mostly concerned with mental imagry, and it may not work for everyone. Shooting head casters have been taught this for years.

Technically, it is where the release is in the stroke that would sort things out from an engineering viewpoint. But mentally, it is just better to entirely forget about the stop. Your description "Cast and Release " is a very good one. Thanks!

Cheers

[Rasmus]

But they are very good teachers, Rasmus.

I think we are mostly concerned with mental imagry, and it may not work for everyone. Shooting head casters have been taught this for years.

Technically, it is where the release is in the stroke that would sort things out from an engineering viewpoint. But mentally, it is just better to entirely forget about the stop. Your description "Cast and Release " is a very good one. Thanks!

Cheers

No doubt they are all very good teachers/instructors and casters i'm not trying to stress that anyone is teaching a wrong way of casting !

But that little difference "Cast & Release" is my point!

I have been fishing together with many good flycasters but most of them don't understand what we are talking about!

Thanks for your support on the topic!

Cheer
Leaders
Rasmus

[Rasmus]

Your description "Cast and Release " is a very good one. Thanks!

Cheers

The C&R or "Cast & Release" description has grown in my mind trying to give a name to this technique, and i'm happy that you find it a good description.

It would be so much easier to discuss casting with other flyfishers if the conversation could start with;
Are you using a "Stop" or "Cast and Release"...

:whistling:

Thanks !

[Rasmus]

Hi Rasmus,

I’ve had a conversation over in the Tech. Forum about this and as far as many engineers are concerned, there HAS to be a stop, or a deceleration, then the release. I doubt they are right but they may be.

Cheers, Rudi

Interesting!
There's more to this subject (C&R) than just the casting detail...

I'll be back!
:whistling:

(Edit: Now another Swedish flyfisher i met at the river who had problems with his casting yesterday said thank you for the technique to me... he got the C&R timing and his casting improved immediately!... )

[Rasmus]

Hmmm... lost a salmon (grilse) on the singlehand rod today and had two takes without any hooked, but what the heck, you won't get them all (Difficult fishing her now)...

Back to the topic...

About rods (Rudi talked about engineers) and "Cast & Release" ... mainly DHD and salmon/seatrout fishing:

Rods getting faster and faster, stiffer and stiffer, thinner and thinner blanks. A fast and stiff rod that has a progressive action is a good rod for casting i think. BUT... the fast and stiff rods are better for casting than fishing in my opinion.
With the "Cast & Release" you can throw the nicest tight loops long distance with a softer old school "spey" type rod. And when you do that you have he perfect rod for fighting the fish at the same time. A slower or more slow rod with a deep action is the best (in my opinion) for fighting large fish quickly with minimal risk of loosing it.

At this salmon river where i'm fishing i'm sorrunded by flyfishers with the newest equipment. I have been using the Hardy Fibatube i mounted/build 18 years ago. I bought a "back up" rod this spring, a Daiwa Whisker Fly, it was really cheap because no one want such a rod these days. It's not so heavy so because of my hurting back i have been using that for the last couple of weeks. And what a nice rod to cast (with the C&R)!!! and to fight a fish on. The deep slow action pumps out the power of the fish. Actually i think my Fibatube is even better when fighting large salmon but the Daiwa is very close, a little stiffer but still bending all the way down in the handle when nescessary). My rods are heavier than newer rods, but they don't break... several has broken new, fast, stiff, lightweight rods around here... Older well build rods can take some serious punishment without breaking when the heat is on and it gets serious.

Many have been surprised about the casting with this "old school rod" (when C&R works for me) and also that i use around 1 minute pr. kilo to land a salmon (7 fresh run salmon landed so far here, 3 between 8-10 kilo (and 2 seatrout) most on the DHD but also nice fish on the singlehander, lost some fish too, one really large 15+)...

But i understand the manufactores of rods these days... they want mid priced rods to break, they have to sell rods. And to make flyfishers believe that the expensive fast rod is important for the cast (and it maybe is with a stop included in casting!)...

There's even more to it...
Enough for now... I'll go casting "C&R"

Cheer
Leaders
Rasmus

[Rasmus]

Nobody out there in cyberspace ?

Silence ???

Or is it too weird this topic ?
Usually when talking casting technique there is always loads of answers, but this stopic is unusually quiet, are sexyloops dead as a casting board, if so where do we discuss this? :whistling:

Are we alone here, Rudi (who knows what i'm talking about and who i really respect), Ben (who is working on the subject) and has got the way forward, and me... (i think i have got it now with both single and doube hand), but unfortunately it took years of casting with the failure of the stop built in the flycasting when shooting line)... It is very difficult to get rid of the stop when you have learned to stop!!!!

"Viking Lars" you and I are the so called "Danish Vikings"... dont "gay" out on this subject, even though it may be a little embarrasing for you to stress what is right and not so right as a teacher/instructor (fff and so on) in flycasting to doubt your technique (thaths why it is so calm here in this topic now, i think)... Do you understand what we are talking about or do you rely and teach the usual stop in casting... I mean you are an instructor (fff ? and everything, we write articles for the same magazine, but do you understand this C&R n your mind ?) i have to know, have you tried it, have you felt it, did it work, have you ever tried to release in steadt of stopping when flycasting /teaching/ discussing flycasting... !

Sorry if i'm too direct in my questons, but i want to stress the stopping/release in flycasting when shooting!

:whistling:

Cheer
Leaders
Rasmus