Hand Path/Tip Path

[andy_with_a_rod]

ok, i guess i can see that. 'the line goes where the momemtum is aimed' could fit.
My point still remains that the biggest factor on what's happening at the top of the rod is what you're doing at the bottom of it. If your hand path deviates from straight then you'll struggle to achieve effective RSP and this will be evident in the resulting loop...
I think..

[easterncaster]

My point still remains that the biggest factor on what's happening at the top of the rod is what you're doing at the bottom of it. ..
I think..

andy,

well sure. the rod only knows how to be straight + static.

what you do, the rod reacts to in an effort to remain straight.

i think...

carry on,
craig

[Frank LoPresti]

I understand Andy. Have you had a look at the 5 Essentials From Bill Gammel ? I believe they can be found on this site. That's as good a place a any to enhance your understanding of the cast. In your diagram I thought you were simply saying that if you stick the rod up in the air and then lower it, yes your quite right, the path of the rod hand would alter the loop formation. Gordy made that same point more or less. But since no one casts like that I thought perhaps that you we're indeed illustrating that the shortest distance between 2 points was a straight line, and that you would have picked diagram 1 also. No ?

Cheers,
Frank

[Stoatstail50]

In your diagram I thought you were simply saying that if you stick the rod up in the air and then lower it, yes your quite right, the path of the rod hand would alter the loop formation.

If the path of the rod hand would alter loop formation in this extreme case Frank, in what sort of cases would it not alter loop formation ? Does it just gradually alter it less and less or something or is there a up and downness threshold where altering suddenly stops and starts ?

[Frank LoPresti]

Mark,

Think of it this way. Lets say you just start to apply angular acceleration to the rod butt and then all of a sudden you raise or lower the rod dramatically. What would be the purpose in doing that ? Sure something like that would impact loop formation, probably kill the cast too.

To the extent that you could do that without distorting the loop is fine, much like in the case of the Swoop as you slightly lower then raise the rod while your applying angular acceleration to the butt. The hand path trajectory in that case is lowering and then raising once again, but not by all that much and it's done very smoothly, and yet the force that is shaping the loop is still going to be the angular acceleration that you are applying to the rod butt at the same time your swooping the rod. So the Swoop is a minor tactic that has minimal impact or direct impact on loop formation. It simply lowers and raises the hand path in a slight curve swoop or dip as it were.

Sounds like it makes sense to me. You ?

Frank

[gordonjudd]

The hand path trajectory in that case is lowering and then raising once again, but not by all that much and it's done very smoothly,

Frank,

Can you put a number on what you mean by "not all that much". Chris' downward hand path is about .6 m in this accuracy casting stroke. You have agreed that this is not a "radical" hand path, so what is the threshold for when raising the hand on the back cast or lowering it on the forward cast becomes excessive?



The downward motion of the hand that good casters use in their accuracy casting is a lot more than most people think, and it is much more up to down rather than being straight back and forth in a horizontal path as you have implied in your diagram.

I have seen a lot of beginning casters pushing the rod butt straight forward on their cast thinking they should keep their hand on a straight path while they cast because of something they have heard from Lefty or Doug Swisher. I remember that Swisher even had an image of the back and forth movement of the linkage on a steam engine as being the correct hand path.

So if a .6 meter drop of the hand is Ok, when does a downward path become too much, or a flat path become too little? Is there an indicator in the shape of the loop that would tell you how you should change the hand path to make a better cast?

Gordy

[Magnus]

the force that is shaping the loop is still going to be the angular acceleration that you are applying to the rod butt

Frank

Can angular acceleration be applied badly? It seems to cure all ills the way you describe it.
Seems to me all sorts of things can happen during a stroke. So as far as I'm concerned the path over which the rod tip accelerates the line decides the loop.

[Frank LoPresti]

The downward motion of the hand that good casters use in their accuracy casting is a lot more than most people think, and it is much more up to down rather than being straight back and forth in a horizontal path as you have implied in your diagram.

Gordy,

Hand path is simply hand path. There will always be a hand path. Think of it this way, take away the forward directional aspect of Chris's angular acceleration from that hand path, and what are you left with ?

Try out the same exercise for a hand path that runs plane parallel to the water or ground with a vertical cast.

Casting plane angles are trajectories. You'll have to excuse me here; since when did trajectory begin to have a direct bearing on tip path as it relates to loop formation ? I must have missed that somewhere or missed that class, or don't have that book or video.

Tilting casting planes is the name of the game for any type of cast. The Swoop is different and much more subtle as to it's effects on rod and tip path

Take the example of a pile cast that uses a a more radical upward trajectory. The loop unrolls just fine. The upward trajectory had no bearing on the formation of the loop. Actually you can almost or at least I can cast straight up in the air and it will have no impact on the loop. Once the loop forms, it falls straight back down.

If your pushing something straight forward without rotation then your translating, not rotating. I use 180 plane hand paths that travel plane parallel to the ground all the time but as I'm doing that I'm effectively applying and directing my rotational angular acceleration along that hand plane at the target.

I think your asking the wrong person if there would be an indicator in the shape of the loop as it went to hand plane, path or trajectory. No there would not, would be my answer anyway. What do you have against straight line hand paths and the directed angular rotational aspect of the hand as it accelerates along that path ?

I look at Chris's hand and see a downward tilted casting plane that he rotates his hand over, no more no less. I do the exact same thing in all planes.

Frank

[Frank LoPresti]

So as far as I'm concerned the path over which the rod tip accelerates the line decides the loop.

Magnus

The path of the rod tip during the stroke is the path of the rod tip that results from angular acceleration that forms the loop. And your right your right to be concerned about it. So we are in complete agreement on that point !

[Frank LoPresti]

The hand path trajectory in that case is lowering and then raising once again, but not by all that much and it's done very smoothly,

Frank,

Can you put a number on what you mean by "not all that much". Chris' downward hand path is about .6 m in this accuracy casting stroke.

Gordy,

This is like the third time you have quoted me and done so incorrectly for the first quote. Why ? Put the whole quote up in context as to what I'm referring to in this passage. Thanks !

[Magnus]

So as far as I'm concerned the path over which the rod tip accelerates the line decides the loop.

Magnus

The path of the rod tip during the stroke is the path of the rod tip that results from angular acceleration that forms the loop. And your right your right to be concerned about it. So we are in complete agreement on that point !

Frank

How about YOU being a bit less selective when YOU quote posts.

Can angular acceleration be applied badly?

[gordonjudd]

To the extent that you could do that without distorting the loop is fine, much like in the case of the Swoop as you slightly lower then raise the rod while your applying angular acceleration to the butt. The hand path trajectory in that case is lowering and then raising once again, but not by all that much and it's done very smoothly, and yet the force that is shaping the loop is still going to be the angular acceleration that you are applying to the rod butt at the same time your swooping the rod. So the Swoop is a minor tactic that has minimal impact or direct impact on loop formation. It simply lowers and raises the hand path in a slight curve swoop or dip as it were.

Frank,
Sorry if you think I was taking your comment about " but not by all that much " or " lowers and raises the hand path in a slight curve swoop or dip as it were" out of context.

I am just trying to understand what you mean by "not that much" or "slight" since it implies to me that you think a good accuracy casting stroke would not use very much up/down movement of the hand. Yet, good tournament casters use much more up/down movement of the hand than most beginning casters realize.

So back to the original question. Do you think a .6 meter drop in the hand path fits with your description of "slight"? If you were shooting at a target ring I don't think missing it by a half of a meter would be considered a "slight" error, so maybe your view of "slight or "not by all that much" has a different connotation when it comes to evaluating the up/down movement of the hand path.

It makes sense to me that a .5 meter drop in the hand path would cause the same .5 m drop in the tip path and that big of path change would have some impact on the loop formation.

Maybe this gets back to the question that I raised in the flycasting forum that you were not afforded a chance to answer. So I will ask it again.

What portion of the tip path do you think is important to loop formation? Is just from the point of max rod flex to MCF or a sub-set of that time range?

Your explanation seems to be claiming that only the time after the stop (when Chris' downward hand path is slowing down) is the portion of the tip path that has a bearing on the loop formation.

Does the path during the loading phase not effect the loop that will be formed? I would expect that a concave tip path that was produced during the acceleration phase (up to the max angular velocity point say) would result in the onset (if not a full-blown) tailing loop.

Gordy

[Frank LoPresti]

So as far as I'm concerned the path over which the rod tip accelerates the line decides the loop.

Magnus

The path of the rod tip during the stroke is the path of the rod tip that results from angular acceleration that forms the loop. And your right your right to be concerned about it. So we are in complete agreement on that point !

Frank

How about YOU being a bit less selective when YOU quote posts.

Can angular acceleration be applied badly?

Gordy,

Not really. The question Magus left me, and I left out, answers itself.

Frank

[Frank LoPresti]

Mark,

Think of it this way. Lets say you just start to apply angular acceleration to the rod butt and then all of a sudden you raise or lower the rod dramatically. What would be the purpose in doing that ? Sure something like that would impact loop formation, probably kill the cast too.

To the extent that you could do that without distorting the loop is fine, much like in the case of the Swoop as you slightly lower then raise the rod while your applying angular acceleration to the butt. The hand path trajectory in that case is lowering and then raising once again, but not by all that much and it's done very smoothly, and yet the force that is shaping the loop is still going to be the angular acceleration that you are applying to the rod butt at the same time your swooping the rod. So the Swoop is a minor tactic that has minimal impact or direct impact on loop formation. It simply lowers and raises the hand path in a slight curve swoop or dip as it were.

This the original words you took way way out of context. Big difference.

Frank

[gordonjudd]

This the original words you took way way out of context. Big difference.

Frank,
Differences aside could you just answer what I think are a couple of straightforward questions with a couple of straightforward answers?

1. Do you think a .6 meter drop in the hand path fits with your description of "slight"?

2. What portion of the tip path do you think is important to loop formation?

Gordy