Kyte would not be happy trust me. He says you want to reposition your arm forward into your strongest throwing position before applying force to the rod. Not while your applying force to the rod, but before it. He's not even hinting at the motion of creep as muti directional component to be continued when applying force to the forward cast. Send him an email and ask him but I think it would be a waste of your time and perhaps his. He's very clear as to the purpose of drift when it comes to changing casting planes and in the direction of the unrolling loop as to angular drift and translation drift before and after the cast, not during.
Your taking a lot of liberties with someone else intent in writing that article. An awful lot. By the way would you get back to me about that question no one wants to answer and then tell me the upside to beginning the casting stroke after a dead stop on the backcast and then as the loop is unrolling beginning the CS with 5 to 10 degrees of creep or positive forward drift in your case. At least Paul had the good sense to state that he would not recommend starting a cast in that manner.
Cheers
Frank
I would have a major effect on how I train instructors.
Paul Arden
So Kyte clearly is in disagreement with Gordy's observation as am I.
Frank,
I am not sure what observation you are talking about, but if it is related to the way Chris Korich starts his accuracy casting stroke then you are disagreeing with one of the best tournament castsers in the U.S., not me.
I do not start my cast with a slight forward rotation of the wrist as Chris recommends. However, I am working on getting rid of the slide (downward movement with no rotation of the rod that opens up the angle between the rod butt and my forearm) that I now have. Chris' style is much more compact than mine, and produces a more reliable turn over of the loop, so I hope to someday develop a style that is closer to his.
Chris' style is a very effective way to hit target after target with perfect scores and in no way would Al Kyte consider his starting motion to be a fault.
Al is very inclusive in realizing there are many ways to cast and would only recommend changing something if there is a problem with the loop a given caster's style produces. I don't think he would have any hard and fast rule that says drift is good and creep is bad.
I agree with just about everyone's view on this subject that how a casters repositions the rod after the stop is not important as long as he produces a cast that fits with his intent.
One man's creep may be a fault, another's may be part of of a great casting style like Chris'. It is all about be open to different styles, and getting away from dogmatic views of what makes for a good casting stroke.
Gordy
"Flyfishing: 200 years of tradition unencumbered by progress." Ralph Cutter
gordonjudd wrote:One man's creep may be a fault........
Gordy,
What about that 50 foot cast the one that uses no backcast drift after the stop. The line is unrolling it's just you, the rod and the ring, between you and 100 bucks. The hand stops on the backcast, the line is unrolling, the line is almost straight and your intention is to not tail the line and land the fly inside the ring. Now if one man's unintentional creep is another man's intentional drift, just how long are you willing to begin your rotation with continuous slow rod rotation. Pick a number between 1 and 10 degrees. Whats your intention in terms of how you are going to apply angular acceleration to the rod, as someone who wants to land that fly in the ring without the slightest tail in the line ? Do you intend to begin by imparting slow continuous acceleration to the rod ? If not what do you intend to do ?
Frank
I would have a major effect on how I train instructors.
Paul Arden
I'm glad that is your goal. Now can you answer my questions instead of avoiding them like the plague. Either you believe what you are saying or you do not and your simply preaching to the choir. Which is it ?
Frank
I would have a major effect on how I train instructors.
Paul Arden
Either you believe what you are saying or you do not and your simply preaching to the choir. Which is it ?
Frank.
Since I know Chris is a much better caster than I am, I will continue working on using a bit of wrist rotation (rather than holding the rod angle constant with no rotation at the start of my cast). If you consider that creep, then so be it. If it is effective for Chris then it should work for me as well.
Thus I would say I believe Chris has an effective method to start his cast. It satisfies his intent to get more tension on the line as he starts forward and produces a good result. In that regard I am preaching to the choir.
Gordy
"Flyfishing: 200 years of tradition unencumbered by progress." Ralph Cutter
Do you intend to begin by imparting slow continuous acceleration to the rod ?
Hi Frank
I think my net connection might be fixed, which is exciting isn't it.
If I understand what you are saying here correctly. Everyone looks to start a casting stroke from this position with continuous acceleration.
If by "slow" you are referring to the "rate" of acceleration then in this case you would have to tell me more....personally I tend to over egg my acceleration rates and have to consciously slow myself down and smooth it out, your "slow" might be my "perfect"...who knows ?
Drift in the SL set is a period during a cast when the principal reason for rod movement is to reposition it. This is most commonly in the direction of the previous casting stroke and may be either rotational, translational or both.
Drifting backwards in the direction of the previous casting stroke isn't the only way however, drifting upwards is equally possible and a forward arm/rod repositioning move as described by Kyte in his article would, in SL terms, fall under the banner term "Drift". If you want to call these things something specific then go to it, "up" "back" "forward" works for me. We have two specific terms for distinct forms of forward rod positioning in the SL set, One is "Slide" the other is "Creep", these too fall under the banner term "Drift". We could name some more if you want because the taxonomic structure of the SL set means that you can slot in terms when you need them.....
Anyway, in the example you are putting I would try very hard not to do any of these things.
Kyte would not be happy trust me. He says you want to reposition your arm forward into your strongest throwing position before applying force to the rod. Not while your applying force to the rod, but before it. He's not even hinting at the motion of creep as muti directional component to be continued when applying force to the forward cast. Send him an email and ask him but I think it would be a waste of your time and perhaps his. He's very clear as to the purpose of drift when it comes to changing casting planes and in the direction of the unrolling loop as to angular drift and translation drift before and after the cast, not during.
Your taking a lot of liberties with someone else intent in writing that article. An awful lot. By the way would you get back to me about that question no one wants to answer and then tell me the upside to beginning the casting stroke after a dead stop on the backcast and then as the loop is unrolling beginning the CS with 5 to 10 degrees of creep or positive forward drift in your case. At least Paul had the good sense to state that he would not recommend starting a cast in that manner.
Cheers
Frank
Kyte may or may not be happy - but be that as it may he uses the word "drift" to refer to a forward motion. Again, I'm not saying he thinks it's beneficial, only that he uses a word in a specific way, that is understandable. What's so bad about that?
On your question (sorry got distracted by this thread):
Under normal circumstances, no I don't think that I would use forward drift. Under other circumstances (eg a really strong back wind) I might, and indeed have used a form of forward drift.
"The only advice it is necessary to give the angler… is to avoid any approach to foppery, as trout have the most thorough contempt for a fop…”
WC Stewart
Will wrote:only that he uses a word in a specific way, that is understandable. What's so bad about that?
Will,
Well because the specific way in which he refers to drift is in a negative context, by dint of creep.
What he is saying in regard to creep and drift is clear. There is no hidden attribute about creep other than it shares one thing in common with drift, slow continuous rod motion, that is where the similarity begins and ends in that article. To take the term drift and then apply another context to it is a misrepresentation of the writers intent, that much we can gather from the tone that the article was written in.
As you mention he uses the word in a specific way, as in creep is undesirable as would be any other motion no matter what you want to call it, (rod drop), of or along same order of magnitude when applied to the CS. I use the term rod drop as it is used when presenting the cast, the line unrolls and you let rod drift down or drop as the line is unrolling. That dropping/drifting rod motion is not a motion of any utility as it pertains to the actual casting stroke when a force is being applied to the line in order to form a loop. Prior to that point sure while the line is unrolling after a cast is made, but not when you are in the act of intentionally trying to form a loop. Think of it this way, as the loop is unrolling on the presentation cast and you are lowering or dropping your rod tip to follow the line down to the water to land neatly, would you call that creep ?
Cheers,
Frank
I would have a major effect on how I train instructors.
Paul Arden
gordonjudd wrote:I will continue working on using a bit of wrist rotation (rather than holding the rod angle constant with no rotation at the start of my cast). If you consider that creep, then so be it. If it is effective for Chris then it should work for me as well.
Gordy,
I really don't know what you are talking about Gordy. You keep hammering on about some kind of wrist rotation at the start of his forward cast as being separate and apart from the start of his forward cast ? Something about a bit of wrist rotation rather than holding the rod at a constant angle ? You've lost me entirely. Chris starts his forward casting stroke like I do and heap of other good casters out there and without drift I might add. So you'll have to be a bit more specific.
Frank
I would have a major effect on how I train instructors.
Paul Arden
Stoatstail50 wrote:If by "slow" you are referring to the "rate" of acceleration then in this case you would have to tell me more...
drifting upwards is equally possible
and a forward arm/rod repositioning move as described by Kyte in his article would, in SL terms, fall under the banner term "Drift".
Anyway, in the example you are putting I would try very hard not to do any of these things.
What I said is that drift is slow and remains slow, and is continuously slow, no rate of change, the speed essentially remains the same, it's constantly slow.
Upward drift is of course, while the line is still unrolling.
Kyte is no where near describing or advocating a forward arm/rod repositioning move when applying a force to the rod for the coming cast. My response to Will.
and as you correctly point out nor would you begin the CS by "drifting" or creeping the rod forward for the example cast. For all to obvious reasons. Why would you do it at the start of any casting stroke is above my pay grade.
I would have a major effect on how I train instructors.
Paul Arden
Why would you do it at the start of any casting stroke is above my pay grade.
Maybe I've missed something in the previous threads while I've been down...where is there any suggestion in the SL set that Drift takes place during a casting stroke ?
It says....
Drift: To position the rod between casting strokes.
Moving the rod to adjust Casting Arc, Stroke Length or Casting Plane. Drift applies little or no force on the line.
Well now we're gettin somewheres. The problem stems from the inclusion of the words Casting Arc as well as Stroke Length in the definition of Drift as noted and written. If it had simply been written to say between casting strokes the problem goes away. You catchin my drift yet ?
I would have a major effect on how I train instructors.
Paul Arden
