Learning - Which line

[Morsie]

If I was to go hard at learning two handed casting with say a Skagit line is that going to adversely affect my casting when it comes to a full line or a Scandi line and vice versa?

Morsie

[Lasse Karlsson]

Hi Peter

No, only if you close your mind!

If you don't, you will find that the slight adjustments are gear specific and cross over is easier

Cheers
Lasse

[Marc LaMouche]

nope, slight details vary just a little but the principles are always the same

[Morsie]

I thought as much, thanks guys. Just need some rivers that are big enough to practise on....... or move to NZed.

Morsie

[Chris Dore]

Move to NZ. The clutha is open year round

[White Hunter]

Hi Morsie

I agree with Lasse that the differences are gear specific, the principles are the same, however they are also dependant on circumstances.

For instance when wading balls deep in pacey water, making large angled single speys is much easier with a short shooting head than it is with a mid to long belly fly line, the pick up is easier, as is the positioning of the line into the D/Vloop.

A skajit system through the rod is a very good introduction to Spey casting, if anything you probably wont spey cast anything easier in your life, however Skajits work best with waterbourne anchored casts such as the circle and double spey, they dont snake roll or single spey too cleverly when you have those heavy tips and flies on of which they were designed to cast, therefore you are only able to practice effectively, half of the casts you may wish to learn.

Just as a side note, the AAPGAI salmon syllabus here in the uk asks that the candidate comes with a line which enables them to make every cast starting with 60 ft beyond the rod tip "it did last time i checked anyway".

I believe that the AAPGAI exam is a very mature reflection of game angling for salmon here in the uk, if you can perform all the casts with 60ft beyond the tip "typically a mid belly spey line which many people will own" technically you should make casts with systems of lesser line lengths with ease "shooting heads, skandi's, Skanjits.. whatever" and furthermore, stepping up to the longer heads shouldnt be too far out of your reach, even if you had not used one for a while......

If I was to give you a recipe to work toward from scratch, after learning the static roll cast " essential to dig out tips/sunk flies off the dangle", I would start you on the double spey and circle cast off both sides, using a skajit or short shooting head like the ones we discussed yesterday. This would give you two casts so you could go and fish in upstream and downstream winds, off either bank.....

Moving on from this the really hard work begins as we seek to master the jump roll "a 0 degree angle change single spey" this is a pure game of consistency and can take a very long time to master, but once complete we can seek to make angular changes with this cast, thus turning it into a single spey proper...

Following which we then nail the snake roll, which most people pick up quickly.

You would now have four casts in your armoury that you can do of either shoulder, two for upstream winds and two for downstream, sub divided by waterbourne anchor or ariealised/dropped in anchors.

From then on in we could start to increase the head lengths through the 55ft zones up into the high 60's.

Personally I find that keeping everything tight as the head length increases does get harder, and when I fish I want to keep everything simple, hence why I generally use shooting heads.

Until the days comes when I am lucky enough to fish rivers across the globe which truly requires a head length of 75ft+, I wont be changing my approach anytime soon..

Cheers

Lee

[Marc LaMouche]

awesome post Lee. i'll pretend you wrote it for me

,
marc

[Morsie]

Great information Lee (I'll share it with you Marc). I do have an OK handle on some of this stuff already, just need to really knuckle down and put it to work - but the last thing I want to do is labour away with the wrong line and develop some bad habits because of it.

The Clutha is very much on my mind Chris......... this summer.

Morsie

[Lasse Karlsson]

I thought as much, thanks guys. Just need some rivers that are big enough to practise on....... or move to NZed.

Morsie

Hi Peter

If I only practiced on rivers big enough, I wouldn't get to practice... Majority of "rivers" within reasonable distance from where I am, are about 5-20 feet wide

I practice in the sea

Cheers
Lasse

[Bernd]

Hello Lee,
nice postings. Lots of good points.
Are you teaching people the overhaed cast as well, when learning to cast DHs?
If no, why? And if yes, how much weight do you put on learning this?
Greets
Bernd

[mattklara]

Hey Peter,

I may disagree slightly with others here but I suspect that it is only based on semantics.

While the principles of Spey casting remain the same for short fat heavy skagit heads, slimmer scandis, and log/mid belly full lines, I do feel very strongly that it is far easier to develop and retain some bad habits if you learn on shooting heads, particularly if you cast mainly skagit heads.

Where I see it coming into play is that to cast long heads you need to be able to continually adjust casting stroke length and power application depending on how much line you have out. WSound familiar to single hand casting? In the PNW, land of beginner spey casters and skagit lines, I see so many guys learn how to cast really well and fish really effectively with one skagit shooting head line setup and 2 casts. One of the main concepts of the "Skagit system" is that you create a head length that matches the rod length and the stroke remains essentially the same. However, if you hand them a kit that is different than their own, longer head, etc, or ask them to make a cast say, left handed, they fall to pieces.

What's wrong with that? Nothing I guess. But, would you consider a person who casts a 9ft 5 wt and strips the line in to the same exact point after every cast to be an all around great caster? I dont. I feel like learning to vary stroke length, power application, etc on the fly is critical to becoming the best caster and angler.

For that reason I feel it is best to learn and practice with full lines with longer heads.

The angler who is able to control the spey principles and cast effectively with a large range of line length out the tip can easily scale back and cast the short heads when fishing application dictates it.

I like longer lines because they also force you to learn to cast off both shoulders (switch top hands) rather than casting "cack handed". With long lines, you can't get the necessary stroke length and drift that you need to control and bomb a long head. Again, this is all in the pursuit of being an effective all around spey caster.

Lastly, another comment on Skagit heads. These were developed by guides to get clients fishing within 10 minutes of meeting them. Even if they have no DH experience. I had kits that I've dialed in tot eh point where they nearly "cast themselves". Do I mean that anyone can launch a 90 footer with a laser tight loop? No. But, with some semi reasonable mechanics and a bit of arm strength, a beginner can be lobbing out a big leech on a 60' fishing cast, and getting it to turn over just fine after only a few minutes. Is that mastery? No. Is it effective? Yes. Will the lobbing, effective fishing stroke that works great with a Skagit line transfer to a scandi head or long line. NO WAY.

Take care. And forget NZ and come to the PNW and we'll give you a crash course!!

Matt

[Ben_D]

Hi Peter,

What Lee said! Great reply and I agree with it totally.


Matt, I take your point about longer lines but would do not teach beginners with them. Once they can clear a Scandi, jump roll it & single Spey, circle & double it to a good standard I would then put them onto a full line if they wished. The most important thing for me is to get the line clear from the water and airbourne (or into required position) with no slack, this is much easier with a short head and I'll often give a client who turns up with a mid belly an AFS until they get the feel of doing it, results come faster that way. Personally I always practice (but rarely fish) with a long line, far more fun than practicing with short stuff IMO.


Cheers

Ben

[Morsie]

Matt I wondered about exactly what you mentioned, someone developing a grooved stroke (that's what I call it and I see it a lot with students who have flogged away at the same distance for year after year and then just can't go anywhere longer) with the Skandi system but I guess there must be some joy in seeing that line get out there.

Thanks Ben and Lasse do you use a 12'6" rod on a stream 5-20 feet wide?

Morsie

[easterncaster]

....

[White Hunter]

Hi Bernd

Wise people come to learn Spey casting, previously they may have discovered that these casting techniques could be answers to solving the angling problems that even the perfect overhead cast could not negate..

Unless an overhead casting brush up with a DH is what the client specifies, the answer to your question is no...

Greets

Lee