Excellent Double Spey Video - Good explanation of the technique

randyflycaster · Post by **randyflycaster** » Fri Nov 04, 2011 3:33 pm

This one by Andrew Moy. Here's the link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aTCkktL8vdQ&feature=related

Randy

crunch · Post by **crunch** » Fri Nov 04, 2011 9:57 pm

Good casting but he uses mostly the top hand to power the casts. Perhaps loops also widen because of that?

easterncaster · Post by **easterncaster** » Sat Nov 05, 2011 2:13 am

Andrew is very, very fine caster... there ain't nuthin' wrong with his loops.

craig

springer · Post by **springer** » Sat Nov 05, 2011 8:07 am

If this was a regular guy on the river then the casting is OK.

Because he is putting himself forward as someone who is good enough to teach others he has to expect to be looked at more closely. IMHO he uses too much top hand and there is way too much rod noise, this to me clearly indicates he hasnt yet found the most efficient way to load that rod.

springer · Post by **springer** » Sat Nov 05, 2011 8:17 am

Upon watching his forward cast demo its very clear he doesnt understand how significant his bottom hand is in all of this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8TwCuNFzCE&feature=related

Nothing against this guy but lets not pretend he's an expert.

sms · Post by **sms** » Sat Nov 05, 2011 1:09 pm

It doesn't really matter which hand you move. It's about bending the rod and using the lever. With long casts, one gets rod noise. It is very clear with light lines. The lighter line you can efficiently use, the more noise, line speed and distance is gained.

Of course, ie casting just the belly or shooting only a little on short or mid belly lines, you don't need much speed and the casting can be pretty silent.

springer · Post by **springer** » Sat Nov 05, 2011 2:07 pm

It doesn't really matter which hand you move.

Really?

It's about bending the rod and using the lever.

I agree, pushing with the top hand of course isnt the best way to achieve this.

The lighter line you can efficiently use, the more noise, line speed and distance is gained.

Using a light line and making lots of noise isnt really that efficient. I will always gain more distance with a heavier (appropriate) line.

sms · Post by **sms** » Sat Nov 05, 2011 3:15 pm

Well, Geir is not very good then

http://www.youtube.com/watch?f....#t=508s

My views on DH spey distance changed totally a bit more than a year ago. In August 2010 I was in Fagernes and saw and heard many of the world's best casters cast. I was utterly stunned. The swoosh sound was something totally different from any casting I had witnessed before - as were the distances.
My DH spey casting changed after that and continued changing a lot in Burud and after that. Between August and late October I had gained almost 10m in distance with a 15' rod with a single spey.

There is a change from 40m to 45m, but it is totally different world from 45m to 50m and beyond. That's with a 15' rod.

springer · Post by **springer** » Sat Nov 05, 2011 9:08 pm

Stop that video at 8.36 - take a look at the positioning of the bottom hand on the caster (Geir?) you have highlighted. The bottom hand couldnt be any further away from him and in a perfect position to pull the rod tip over, this he clearly does. Because this is extreme distance casting he then finishes off with a driven top hand to maximise his stroke length. By no means is that a top hand dominated casting style.

As for rod noise - yes at this extreme level of distance casting you will get it.

The context of this discussion wasnt extreme distance spey casting, it was a guy using all top hand and too much effort while trying to teach others - big difference.

sms · Post by **sms** » Mon Nov 07, 2011 5:02 pm

Yes, one needs both arms. And, with distance casting you run out of arm unless if you want to stop high - unless you help with bottom hand. And of course, it is not the only good thing about it. But compared to Mathias Lilleheim, Geir is not using much bottom hand movement.
This is Mathias, I wasn't able to find a better vid now unfortunately.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbRM4uh_nY0

With distance casting, one should maximise everything. Stroke length, speed and efficiency to get max distance. So, in that sense I think that distance casting relates.

Since beginning distance casting myself, I've learned to cast much more easier light lines too. But there is the sound with them even in fairly long (fishing) distances. Heavier lines are easier to a certain point, but I feel they are heavier to use too - if you're skilled enough, since it is more about speed than strength. And the speed comes from technique. When a friend of mine complained that the line doesn't load the rod, a wise Scottish man answered to him that: "It is not the line that is not loading the rod, it is you not loading the rod."

Andrew Moy is not using all top hand, he is actually using pretty sharp bottom hand. Short and in my opion, takes the hand into odd place, but still uses it. No doubt about it. Just look at the attachment.
He doesn't seem like a great caster and some stuff he explain are something I do not agree at all. I wouldn't call him a master, but he is not bad either based on those two videos.

I am very sensitive about people who say no, "You cannot do it like that." Everyone is different and different technique suit different people. Also the gear used changes what suits best.

Everybody is using both hands thou, otherwise they'd be casting single handed. As Newton's 3rd law says: "To every action there is always an equal and opposite reaction: or the forces of two bodies on each other are always equal and are directed in opposite directions." So, regardless of movent, the top hand is pushing and bottom hand is pulling on forward cast.

springer · Post by **springer** » Mon Nov 07, 2011 5:16 pm

His top hand clearly moves far more than the bottom one, hence the fact that he is top hand dominant. Not the most efficient way to work his rod.

I agree a caster loads the rod but this is in balance with speed and static line weight. An increase in one will result in a decrease in the other while still achieving the same result.

The position of Andrews bottom hand (prior to commencement of the forward cast) clearly shows me how little opportunity it has to be of significant use IMHO.

sms · Post by **sms** » Mon Nov 07, 2011 6:15 pm

To be honest, you've lost me.
Geir's bottom hand vs top hand moves in the horizontal plane as little as Moy's in relation to arc.

How do you define bottom hand dominated and top hand dominated? Total horizontal movement of the hands?

So you think Moy should take rotate more - or take the rod further from his body with the FC?

You need also to remember the inertia of the rod, it also bends the rod when rotational acceleration is applied (also with linear acceleration, but that is of minor effect in casting).

With bottom hand dominant casting, we are moving up the rotational center, so we are essentially shortening the rod lever, but compensate it faster rotation. If humans were able to produce movement with one hand only - it would be better with top hand as longer lever would be in use - thus higher tip speed would be attainable.

In my opinion, the most efficient casting is when just the right amount of force is put on the line via rod in SLP to make the line straighten on the desired distance at desired hight (and hight of the whole line from the water).

With very small distances all one needs to be is smooth. With longer distances one needs to be smooth, but the longer you go, the more you need apply rotational acceleration at the end. Thus, I think, that with many people it is very much easier to be smooth and bend the rod quite deep with top hand movement and then just put the extra needed with bottom hand. If I were to choose, I would reserve my bottom hand movement solely to about the last third when distance casting. When casually casting with very light grip I think I'm using the top hand a tad more than bottom and majority of bottom hand movement is in the latter half of stroke. I think because I haven't videod myself other than distance casting.

The rod does not know which hand moves. It only knows the force the hands apply on it.

But what do I know. I've only started to learn how to cast a bit over a year ago with a DH even thou I've been fishing one for 15 years.

Btw, do you think pulling is the most efficient way of casting a single hander?

springer · Post by **springer** » Mon Nov 07, 2011 7:34 pm

I was referring to Andrew's bottom hand, not Gers.

Its very clear from the pictures you have posted (of Andrew) where his hands are and how little use his bottom hand will be from that position, and how much the top hand will be forced to dominate as a result, this can clearly be seen in the videos.

I agree the rod doesnt know what hand is doing what but it does respond differently depending on how we work it. Efficiency on the part of the caster is greatly increased when the top hand works less and the bottom hand does more.

The whole discussion (as far as Im concerned) was about how the guy was top hand dominant and noisy, neither of which in the context of the film and its instructional objective is good IMHO.

Pulling or pushing with a single handed is irrelevant in the context of this discussion.

IMO in any form of double handed casting the bottom hand is king, Im not talking short stroke underhand cast style but the modern spey cast as used by casters as wide ranging as Granbo/Syrstad to Armstrong/Downey and many of us in between.

sms · Post by **sms** » Mon Nov 07, 2011 8:44 pm

sms wrote:Geir's bottom hand vs top hand moves in the horizontal plane as little as Moy's in relation to arc.

springer wrote:I was referring to Andrew's bottom hand, not Gers.

I stated that they use the same amount of top hand movement vs. bottom hand movement. I did not measure, but just a quick approximation. Still you see Geir as bottom hand dominant and Andrew top hand dominant.

sms wrote:How do you define bottom hand dominated and top hand dominated? Total horizontal movement of the hands?

You did not answer at all to this. It is difficult to discuss if definitions are not clear. What do you mean by efficient? In my opinion efficiency is, in this case, a measure of energy put in to the line in casting direction divided by the energy put in by the caster (within reasonable loop size if fishing is thought since too tight loops are often not very good in fishing).

springer wrote:Its very clear from the pictures you have posted (of Andrew) where his hands are and how little use his bottom hand will be from that position, and how much the top hand will be forced to dominate as a result, this can clearly be seen in the videos.

A small movement, at the right time is very "efficient". There is definate movement backwards with his lower hand. And not at totally wrong time either.

springer wrote:I agree the rod doesnt know what hand is doing what but it does respond differently depending on how we work it. Efficiency on the part of the caster is greatly increased when the top hand works less and the bottom hand does more.

I disagree that bottom hand in itself vs. top hand is more efficient. The rod does not know if the top hand moves forward or if the bottom hand moves backwards. Or both. It only "knows" their relative movement. If the top hand moves at velocity of 1, the bottom hand does not move, let's say tip velocity is 10. Now top hand stays still and only bottom hand moves -> tip could move only velocity of 9 (depending on grip width and rod lenght). The fastest tip speed would be when both hands move opposite directions at the same velocity.

springer wrote:The whole discussion (as far as Im concerned) was about how the guy was top hand dominant and noisy, neither of which in the context of the film and its instructional objective is good IMHO.

Why do you think top hand dominant is bad? Do you have any sound physical explanation, theory or postulate? Noise can be a sign of bad application of force. But it does not come from top hand dominant casting style in itself.

springer wrote:Pulling or pushing with a single handed is irrelevant in the context of this discussion.

I think it is as absurd as thinking efficiency of bottom or top hand dominant casting. The rotational center changes in both.

springer wrote:IMO in any form of double handed casting the bottom hand is king, Im not talking short stroke underhand cast style but the modern spey cast as used by casters as wide ranging as Granbo/Syrstad to Armstrong/Downey and many of us in between.

Ok, that is your opinion. I do not agree. I think it depends on the caster and the tackle. And on the definition of what is bottom dominant and what is top hand dominant.

grunde · Post by **grunde** » Mon Nov 07, 2011 8:54 pm

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Excellent Double Spey Video - Good explanation of the technique

Excellent Double Spey Video - Good explanation of the technique

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