Lasse Karlsson wrote:Tell me the difference you see in casting a wf and aa shootinghead please?
Hi Lasse,
am not Peter... but
To me it's in the definition.
A shooting head to me is nothing else but the head ONLY.
Every full fly line has a head either. It can be short, medium, long or anything inbetween.
The same goes for the shooting heads. The head can be short, medium, long or anything inbetween, too...
So I agree with your points... just one additional difference I can think of:
The connection between a shooting head and the running line may be a bit rough/uneven with some shooting head systems. In case it can be extra important to get the full head outside the tip in order to get it (the shooting head) to shoot. With the fully line the connection between head and running line often will be smoother. So one may get away with shoouting the connection out, too.
That is the only difference I can think of.
Shooting heads are often mistaken to be short and heavy and then a thin running line behind.
I think we agree that this is not a good definition for a shooting head...
Paul Arden wrote:Counterflex isn't an issue with a long full line carry and may actually be beneficial. With a short head it simply pulls the loop open.
Hi Paul,
first you have to define what exactly you are referring to here .
"long full line carry" can be a 30' head + 10' rear taper + 10' running line outside the tip, right?
1. What is long carry?
2. What profile are you talking about for the fully line?
Btw. a short head + some overhang and counterflex won't do much to the head.
Remember Aitor's video on that one?
Paul Arden wrote:My loops with a MED can start off 20ft wide!
So if cf isn't an issue, you wouldn't call the bb being a significant effect?
Personally I think it costs you some distance. It's just that at the same time you benefit from a higher line velocity for the whole cast.
The same cast without the effect of cf and who knows you might have won even though you threw your running line in the water. :p
Paul Arden wrote:My loops with a MED can start off 20ft wide!
Yeah, but is that the best way to throw?
And you loops with aa long shootinghead start out the same size....
Ok, you're not that good with the shootinghead, but then again neither are you with the fullline
If you cut of the med at the end of the rear taper and attach aa shootingline, what would you then change to throw the longest?
Yes poor connections require them to be outside the tip.
But if I want to throw long I want the same amount outside the tip for either line, it would be counterproductive to try and throw distance with belly or rear taper inside the tip. Just the same as excesieve amounts of overhang is counterproductive with either line.
Agree Lasse, for us it will always be the same... For students it can make a huge difference if there is an uneven connection or not.
Btw. I wouldn't call it to be a poor connection. Sometimes an uneven connection can tell a beginner "Hey pls. add a little more overhang first."
Sure, we have colors, too...
Anyway just yesterday I had a woman in the lesson starting to fly cast for the first time.
Changing to a shooting head at the end of the lesson gave her the benefit to know exactly when the head was just outiside the tip. I would not recommend to use this head from then on but it helped to develop the feel about how much overhang is too much and how big that effect is.
On colored lines I like to add a black mark where to hold the line hand before shooting. The tip is travelling fast mostly and that makes it more difficult to see the color change.
Greets
Bernd
Counterflex is the rebending of the rod, caused by its kinetic energy at RSP. It's the same in both full lines and shooting heads. With full lines ie 90ft carries, sticking 20ft of running line in a 20ft initial loop face is no problem. In fact I reckon that's the way to throw it. With a 30ft shooting head counterflex at right angles to the fly line direction opens the loop. The closer you can finish the stroke to the vertical the less impact CF will have on the loop because it's in a similar direction to the fly leg.
If you work back from the direction of CF you can see that the strokes must be different for optimal distance. Which I believe explains why some casters excel in T38 and others in 5 weight distance.
There are other differences too, such as the haul must begin earlier with SHs because the arc is narrower. And it's critical to release quickly with the haul in this case.
Lasse, very few good casters I come across have any immediate understanding of overhang but the big issue I see is trajectory. Most who pick up a head for the first time will crash it into the water about 60 feet out. It has the potential to go further with considerably less energy input because of the reduced friction of the running line, so less power, lower backcast, high aimed forward cast, more flight time longer distance.
Morsie wrote:Lasse, very few good casters I come across have any immediate understanding of overhang but the big issue I see is trajectory. Most who pick up a head for the first time will crash it into the water about 60 feet out.
Hi Peter,
I think it's fair to say: Where Lasse and I live, fishing shooting heads (along the Baltic coast on Sea trout) has quite some tradition. I have been teaching it for 15 years now and I wasn't the first one to do so.
There might be a difference between your area and this piece of earth here?
Probably in your area me and Lasse soon would come across the very same experience like yours about the avg. student...
Greets
Bernd
I'm sure it would have some affect Bernd, but I don't know if it's been measured. I get significant CF with no line at all.
When you say "the right amount of Overhang", Lasse, what does that mean to you?
I adjust my haul for the reasons mentioned above. I apply force in the first 90 degrees of the Casting Stroke with a SH. With a full line I cast through 180 degrees and apply force in the second half. Haul with full line begins with the rod butt close or just past the perpendicular. Haul with SH ends with the rod butt just passed the perpendicular.
.
