Paul Arden wrote:Does anyone know a top Javelin coach we could invite to a Sexyloops Meet sometime? I think that would be fascinating.
Cheers, Paul
Just talk to Matthias Lilleheim in Norway!
I agree giving the students a style helps me to make the lesson pretty clear and straight forward.
I choose the open stance here cause I will teach them to watch the back cast.
Also I teach to start with an inactive (firm) wrist. All these things result in a style, sure.
But at the same time I let them know that there are things like the power snap and I will show these techniques to them, too. They then will know why they start with a firm wrist but later on may find the pros of using the wrist in a CONTROLLED way.
I don't believe we will ever find the one style and that's great because it makes it way more interesting and gives quiet a long journey to go. Up to everyone him/herself how long to go on this journey.
Just like you, ready for TLT now
Paul Arden wrote:Incidentally if you don't ever change foot positioning Lasse, what do you change? And is there anything else you never change and why?
Cheers, Paul
Am not Lasse, but I never change the substance.
Since Lasse did not include stance to substance I think he changes stances depending on the situation and task.
Bernd wrote:I choose the open stance here cause I will teach them to watch the back cast. Also I teach to start with an inactive (firm) wrist.
Hi Bernd,
Sure that works smoothly with different variations of index finger up or a "V" grip. But will it work with students who have a clasic thumb on the top grip (suppose they are already accustomed to that; that's a typical student who comes to my lessons) when you want them to cast in a vertical plane.
Maybe they will occasional hit their right shoulder in front cast?
Will you advise them to change stance for closed or more parallel; or modify their grip and wrist position; or cast in side casting plane?
I fully understand that. But I prefer keep it as simple as possible and not to teach people casting in the casting plane passing over their body. Sooner or later they try that with too much line and fly on their leader.
Surely I will point them on all possible problems and different techniques how to avoid hooking themself. But, as I said at the beginning of this topic, have to deal with " intermediate casting level guys with a lot of fising experience."
I'm not sure you understand what that mean. Both “Please, I suggest…"and “Eins, zwei, drei… Halt!” methods do not fully works on that specific category. I would really like to see how will you (or Bernd) deal with this problem in practice. I think Paol has some experience in this matter. Don’t you Paol?
Lasse Karlsson wrote:Any stance works with any grip in moderate movements which works all the way up to just before extreme distance.
Unless the caster has aa physical condition that hinders it.
Cheers
Lasse
Hi Aleksandar,
seems as if Lasse and me pretty much agree in these days .
Since in my area 95% of the students fish 7 to 8 wt. lines on Sea trout along the Baltic coast (heavy winds and heavy flies mostly), a lot will jump on the thumb on top first (when starting on their own).
This is simply because their technique is not good yet and the thumb on top allows to compensate bad technique with more force application in order to still get the fly to the fish...
What I do is:
Offering another grip to try it.
As well as teaching the cons of the thumb on top. For example using the open stance and a long stroke (for distance) the thumb will be turned sideways (faced to the caster) on the bc. This turn easily brings in tip movement to the same side and soon the loop opens up sideways, too.
I teach how to avoid that and then they still can use the thumb on top and become good casters.
Besides that most casters choose the open stance when starting on their own here (99 out of 100 that is). That is for a very good reason I think!
Meeting my students again after they had a lesson with me I find many casters using the v grip on heavier tackle and index finger on top for light tackle.
Greets
Bernd
Paul Arden wrote:I'm not sure I understand, Bernd, do you change a pupil's foot position? It appears that you must because you teach open stance to watch the backcast?
Which elements do you never change and why? Stance the way Stoats thinks about it is key to "good form".
Cheers, Paol
Hi Paul,
first of all I must say 99 out of 100 students stay open if I don't say anything here.
I know this is different in other areas of the planet since lots of instructors like to teach the "parallel stance" for exmple.
I remember Al Kyte teaches parallel stance in the beginners class and then changes them to open stance in the advanced class (following his book) in order to make longer strokes possible or let's say more easy.
I do understand why he does it and that most of his students are not focused on long casts but in short to medium range distances.
Here where I live everyone is into long distances. So we need long strokes right from the start...
What I don't like to do is changing the technique later on! I want my students to start with a technique that works on short and long distances all live long.
The close stance requires to twist/turn in the hips/chest area of the body for watching the bc. This is something that feels very unnatural to most students and to me either. Sure one can learn it. But I prefer to follow the natural position choosen by most students themthelves: open stance.
If someone shows up with the closed stance I check what happens if I change it to the open stance and usually that is no problem at all.
Most students feel better immediately - specially when watching the bc.
Btw most instructors I know teaching the parallel or closed stance teach not to watch the bc.
The funny thing is if I ask those instructors to aerialize a bit more line they often don't realize that they start to watching their bc all the time . Remembering students learning from watching, too... this is important to have an eye on I think!
So back to your question, yes at least I want the students to try out the open stance, if they not already have done or better alreday use it in 99%.
If (now that happens very rare, almost never) someone feels significant better with the close stance I offer to try to use the open stance BUT twist/turn in the back foot! This often results in the same tracking one has with the close stance. For those getting a benefit in tracking by the close stance that is. Next step is learning why this might help and then transfer to open the foot position again.
If finally someone feels better with the close stance, no problem he can use that of course. Again in fishing I want them to be able to use all kinds of stances anyway.
I don't want "open stance" or "ALWAYS looking back" robots...
What I teach to never change is the substance:
1. remove slack line
2. good timing
3. smooth accel. to an abrupt stop
4. rotation at the right time
5. adjust arc + stroke to a) desired line speed
and so on.
After all, let us leave these guys who love flyfishing, and think they just know something about fly casting, in their misery. Or in their eternal peace. They deserve that.
- May the Force be with them - such as Yoda said. Or Drath…?, it doesn't matter.
We have swallow this five essences for 101 times. This topic is about didactics. Better, explain to me the "Six-step rule." How do you explain that things to your students? Should they know about our ‘secrets’? Or, should we educate them how to educate themselves?
I want my students to have an idea what to do, if - after the lesson when being on their own - a typical problem (tailings issues for example) creeps in.
Therefore I make them feel non smooth acceler. and explain what that means for rod bend and tip path and then finally for the loop.
Same with adjusting the arc. I let them try a too small and too wide arc, form wide and tight loops in different ways.
Finally they understand how to form different loop shapes, how to achieve different line speeds and trajectories based on controlling (what I call to be) substance.
I additionally teach them how to adapt these substance into every new cast they might be facing with in the future.
Due to that they have an idea of how to learn a new cast on their own.
I don't keep any secrets! What I know simply all goes into my teaching.
Yes, 6 step method easily might be part of the lesson.
To be honest I rarely watch my backcast when fishing! I think it's a great thing to teach beginners to watch their backcast in order to understand how to throw a narrow loop, timing etc, but once that is established I teach them closed stance and not to watch their backcast.
That's interesting Paul. Which stance would you choose while teaching the beginner to watch his/her bc?
Did any of the students ever ask you why you use the open stance on your distance casting after teaching them the close stance?
Sorry Aleksandar,
did not really get that question .
I think for every instructor it is a must to understand the complete relationship between:
1. loop shape picture
2. rod bend and tip path
3. casters complete movement
Reading the loop shape picture to me is very essential.
I get as many "ideas" what to improve in the students technique by watching the pure loop shape development as by watching his/her body movements (starting with the feet ending in the hands).
If this will result exactly in the six step method (loop picture>rod movement>caster's movement>correction in caster's movement>better rod movement>great loops) depends. If I just see an ineffective movement for the shoulder... it's just one direct step to correct it.
But then again - depending on how big issue that was for my student - I might explain him/her the whole issue based on all six steps, just to really make him/her understand and be able to help him(her)self afterwards.
B
.