Didactics - Different casting styles

[alp]

Hi,

There are a lot of experienced instructors on this board. I have a question for them. Suppose we have a student, intermediate casting level, lot of fishing experience - but completely different casting style. He simply wants to improve his casting and catch more fish.

What would you do?

a) Press him to convert on ‘true religion’ first and then start from scratch;
b) Leave him confused for some time, and then turn him slowly on what we think is best;
c) Adapt our lessons to his casting style. What could be very tricky, but seems most fair to me;
d) Recommend him another instructor.

Thanks
Aleksandar

[Bernd]

Hi Aleksandar,
teach him/her the basics of all casting styles.
Every great caster independent of his/her style uses exactly the same key figures to control:
a) loop shape
b) line speed
c) trajectory
We all have the same key to good casting by controlling all three of these.
That is what Roberto Pragliola, Steve Rajeff, Göran Andersson, Hans Gebetsroither and all of these "stylish" casters do, too.
In the very end we all have our own style anyway.
Greets
Bernd

[Marc LaMouche]

nice topic Aleksandar,

the key point here is: "He simply wants to improve his casting and catch more fish."

so, in order of preference i'd go for:
c) a good instructor should be able to adapt to the student quicker than the student adapts to something new.

b) is a very interesting approach. this would show the finesse and experience of the instructor if it works.

a) no pressing of course !
however, taking a few steps back in order to take more steps forward are very often necessary.
example: the person who wants to cast to 30m but can't cast 20m 'cleanly'.

d) there's absolutely nothing wrong with referring someone to someone more qualified.
last week, someone asked me to teach them the TLT method. i told him right away that i have no structured experience in this method but explained what i know about it and referred him to our friend Malik in Switzerland. it's a little far from Sweden but at least he'll get the opportunity to see some real mountains and eat real food…

cheers,
marc

[alp]

Marc, I hope this is not a certain gentleman who recently traveled to Ferrari-Land in his well-known vehicle like Suzuki Jimmy?

[alp]

Bernd,

Maybe I'm wrong, but your approach tends to be close to “a”. Intermediate casting level already know that, more or less. Suppose, he is familiar with the six-step rule too.

Hypotheticaly, just for example, he keeps index finger on a blank and push rod in the front cast. For some reason you would prefer pulling and the thumb on the cork.

Are you going to correct him or let to continue?

Cheers

Aleksandar

[Marc LaMouche]

nope ! this one has hair and a Volvo... :laugh:

[Bernd]

Hi Aleksandar,
I will teach the pros and cons of each grip.
Then I may ask him/her to just try the index finger on top for example (if he/she was into thump on top). I will make him/her feel the pros and understand the cons (the points of which to take care of). This usually works fast (10-15 minutes).
I will not dictate a single grip at all, never.

Same with stance. I will offer the pros of the open stance but at the same time make sure he/she knows about the cons, too. That way I make sure he/she does not start to open his/her loops due to too much body rotation for example.
Then I will add a few words about the learning concepts on grass compared to all situations on water which simply dictate how to stay best mostly.

I personally do not believe into the seperation of beginners, advanced, further advanced, great casters, professionals and so on.
All troubles in our casting are 95% based on being not good enough in controlling the same 6 key figures I teach.
This is regardless of style or caster's level.

I doubt there is any caster on the planet who could not improve in timing or smooth acceleration to an abrupt stop for example.
If so, I did not meet him/her yet .

Without having a good basement (and it does not take long to teach it) I do not see much sense in teaching special casts and so on.
First I wanna built up a basement and then the pyramid might get a nice top, matching his/her situation as good as possible.

All the so called advanced casters are mising points I teach to every beginner in the very first lesson simply.
Someone once said to me: "Back to the basics." In my experience he was damned right!

Greets
Bernd

[victor]

As an instructor you should be able to adapt to any style the student brings, not adapt the student to your style. There may be things they are doing which you might like to alter but most of them involve the mechanics of the stroke not the style.

Mike

[alp]

Hi Mike,

I agree, no doubt about this. By the way, thanks for writing so nice about me on your blog few years ago. Hungary, Austrian style demonstration, switch cast...

Greeting
Aleksandar

[Magnus]

Anyone else have problems with this statement:

All the so called advanced casters are mising points I teach to every beginner in the very first lesson simply.

[alp]

Hi Magnus,

Is there anyone who claimed otherwise. No, I think.

But the definition of simplicity is not so simple. There are different opinions about that small detail. Certainly beginner needs a different approach than someone with some experience in something. Fly Casting & Fly Fishing for example.

Also, good teachers can recognize the different interests of their students. And then just give the guy what he wants. Better fishing skills for example. Why not?!

Thats simple, I think.

Greeting
Aleksandar

[Bernd]

Anyone else have problems with this statement:

All the so called advanced casters are mising points I teach to every beginner in the very first lesson simply.

Hi Magnus,
reading it again this might be a language issue.

I teach a basic concept of how a fly cast works to all beginners - how to achieve the desired loop shape, line speed and trajectory - finally matching the fishing situation.

If advanced students show up having typical casting problems (like tailing issues for example) and did not have a lesson with me already, in 99% the causes are within exactly the key points I teach to control those three targets above. Mostly they did not know much about key points like the 5 essentials. That was why I used the term "so called" :p .

Smooth acceleration to an abrupt stop is one of those key points...

Hope that makes more sense for you (whatever the problem was ).
Greets
Bernd

[Paul Arden]

I'm happy to teach alternative styles to a student. If the style he's using has a limitation on what he wishes to achieve, then I will quite simply say, that's one style, and we can certainly work with that and will, but I'd also like to show you an alternative technique. I find that's the best approach, after all who knows how he came to his style? We can't assume that it's through trial and error or even the best style for him (if there is such a thing).

Cheers, Paul

[Bernd]

Hi Paul,
that's very similiar to what I do.
Usually I will not force to change one's style but (as I said teach the basics which are the same for all styles) first.
Last week I had a student casting the Gebetsroither style.
He wanted to aerialize huge carries and got the typical problems with his bc opening up on that style.
So I offered him a different style and explained the limitations due to the Gebetsroither when reaching long carries. He adapted the change and within some hours was way on top of what he was with his style. In the end he was very happy to use both styles now depending on what he wants to do.
Also I remember a student from Italy joining me fishing for pike. He was totally enthusiastic about the TLT style while using an 8wt. rod and a 5 wt. line to throw huge pike streamers. I showed him what happens with a 9wt. line on the same rod . He decided to live with the (huge) limitations and stayed tuned to the TLT adjustment using a very light line. This happens very rarely but sometimes someone totally believes in the one and only style cause his instructor made it (TLT) religious for about years already.
Greets
Bernd

[Paul Arden]

The great thing about this approach is that it opens the way to cloning techniques, which are extremely effective!