2 questions about casting

[Eikre 9’0” #5]

Hi there,

The practicing in my garden goes nicely. I didn't knew back in 2005 why I bought such a big garden. Now I know the purpose was all along to have the space to fly-cast in it.

I do have 2 questions on my casting though that I didn't find any info on yet on this board (ran through about 80 topics in casting section already):

1. When I look at videos of instructors online, I notice that the bottom of the loop always follows a nice straight line unfolding. I do have that with my back cast but with my front cast the bottom of the loop is always wobbly/ wave-like. I think it must have something to do with my stop on the front-cast but can't get a good grasp on it. Thoughts?

2. When hauling on the back cast my flyline won't follow through and I end up with a lot of slack which kind of messes up my front haul. When only front hauling the line does follow through. (the problem is less when I put on a spool with an intermediate sinking line. Because this is heavier?) Thoughts?

[Marc LaMouche]

hi,

1- try relaxing your hand immediately after the stop.

2-
a- clean your line very regularly
b- drift the rod tip back a little after the BC stop, the line will slide better because there's less of an acute angle between the plane of the rod and the plane of the line.
c- intermediate and sinking lines of the same line class are not heavier than floating lines. (if they where they wouldn't fit into that line's weight class)
however they are thinner and therefore move through the air faster than floaters.

cheers,
marc

[Eikre 9’0” #5]

Hi Marc,

Thx for the input.

Can you specify a bit more on what you mean with "relaxing" the hand?
Is it:
* less powerfull grip?
* less wrist-tension so it moves forward after the stop?
* other?

[Bernd]

Hi "Eikre",
on Sexyloops we like to differentiate between:

a) fly-leg
b) loop front and
c) rod-leg
of the loop

The fly-leg (all line between fly and loop front) is mainly formed by the rod tip movement before the stop (deceleration) starts.

The loop front (or transition) is mainly formed by the rod tip movement during the stop (deceleration).

The rod-leg is mainly formed by the rod tip movement after the stop (deceleration).

Since you have waves in what we call to be the rod-leg Marc offers you to relax (loosening/opening=opposite of squeezing ) the grip AFTER the stop. This for dampening vibrations in your rod.
In addition you may try not to stop too abrupt. Smooth acceleration to an abrupt stop is best. But the stop should not be too abrupt also. Try little less abrupt and relax in the very end of the stop (as Marc mentioned).
It also can help to use little less overall force application pretty often.

Of course without seeing what you do... it's hard to give best advice...

How dou you speed up your line hand on the back cast hauling?
I have seen a good number of students trying to speed up by shoulder rotation here (while keeping the ellbow almost firm). That does not work at all. Speed should be done by opening your ellbow (not much shoulder movement involved here).
Then immediately after you pulled the line thru the guides follow and allow the line to go.
Mel Krieger used to say: "It's not down and it's not up. It's downup." (one word = one movement).
I like this method very much but call it "downuuup". Down will be down with little more speed then up. But still no pause between down and up. (uuup= smooth follow thru with your line hand).

The haul/pull with your line hand should be done in the direction the rod end points to.
This means in the back cast you will haul/pull the line hand in a forward direction. And for the forward cast you haul/pull it behind your body (backwards direction).

Very important: Short line (outside the tip) = short hauling distance, long line outside the tip = longer hauling distance.

Let us know if that helps.
Best
Bernd

[Paul Arden]

Hi Steven, the problem 1 can also be caused by rod and line combinations, and indeed too relaxed a grip (but uncommon). I'm too bothered about those waves. There are usually bigger problems!

2 can be many things, and is easy to solve. What floating line are you using? Can you shoot line on the backcast without hauling?

Cheers, Paul

[Eikre 9’0” #5]

@ Bernd: Thanks for the input. First of all, your explanation of the loop parts and there causes makes me see much more clear on my own casting analysis.
I did put in one more hour of practice this evening after reading your post. Your "downuuuup" and the hauling distance-tip were worth a lot. I did manage to get the line to follow on the backcast now although not as good as on the front cast. Need to practice more on that.

The waves in the rod-leg are still there though. I can manage to make them less visible, but then my loops are getting pretty wide.
I will work on that also tomorrow.

@ Paul:
Floating flyline is a Jim Teeny Professional (Gary Lafontaine F-5).
Rod is an Eikre Fluvius 9" AFTM5.
On your question if I can shoot line on the backcast without hauling the answer is easy: No. I didn't even try that but I'm sure I can't.

[Marc LaMouche]

Can you specify a bit more on what you mean with "relaxing" the hand?

hi Steven,
you can try this right now. grab a pen or just a rod butt section and pantomime the FC.
once you've squeezed your hand to make the stop, relax that squeeze. the idea is to hold the grip just enough to neither let the rod drop on the floor or let it torque (the reel swings left or right along the rod's axis)

later, do this with the full rod, (no line !) and look at how the rod reacts.
if you continue squeezing hard after the stop the rod keeps on boing-boinging up and down.
had there been a line cast all those boings would make corresponding waves in the rod leg.
if you immediately relax the grip, the rod stops it's movement much earlier and we get a lot less waves. we call this 'damping'

cheers,
marc

[Chris Dore]

Try tightening up your backcast. I had this yesterday with a student. Delay backcast rotation. Stop crisp. As paul is suggesting, if you can shoot line into the backcast then you are ready to haul. If not, work on your backcast.

[slack]

Eikre My suggestion for your back cast haul and not getting the slack out is. You need to lean to shoot line, lots of line on that back cast. Make only back casts with a haul and shoot ,turn around and repeat it. Spend your entire practice on just that one move. All above advice is excellent from other casters. By breaking down the cast to, just BC,haul and shoot ,I think it makes focusing easier. Good luck Slack and who should know more about slack than a guy called slack,just kidding .

[Lasse Karlsson]

Hi Steven

A little videoclip to go along with Marc's suggestions

https://vimeo.com/10378527

Cheers
Lasse

[Eikre 9’0” #5]

Thx Marc and Lasse. Especially the video makes it very clear. In the video you loosen the whole grip, but I notice that lifting the thumb after the stop is already working very well.

@Chris: I'm not sure what you mean with "delaying backcast rotation". Tried to look it up in sexyloops but can't find anything that makes it clear to me.
I do notice that my backcast loops are wider than I want them to be...

General question: isn't it normal that shooting line on frontcast is easier than on the backcast since the snake-eyes of the rod or pointing downwards on the FC and upwards on the BC? (If I'm totally off here, please don't beat around the bush and say so, my skin is elephant :laugh: )

[Lasse Karlsson]

Hi Steven

I overdo it in the clip for show and tell

And you are right, it is easier to shoot with the rings pointed down and the line only running along those, in the backcast the line also runs along the blank of the rod. Try and turn your rings to the outside so there's no difference in backcast and forward cast. Shooting line should feel equally easy. If not, then there's something to work on

Cheers
Lasse

[Marc LaMouche]

i'd forgotten that video, Lasse. thanks

[Bernd]

Hi Eikre,
you may check this fine article:
http://www.sexyloops.com/articles/perfectloop.shtml

Translation means:
Pulling the rod in the direction of the cast but without changing the clock position.

Rotation means:
Accelerating the rod by changing clock position.

In true casting mostly we do both at the same time.
But the best casters know how to rotate at the right time.

Tight loops:
Pull, pull, pull and rotate. Or in other words:
10, 10, 10, 2 o'clock

Wider loops:
Rotation over the whole rod hand path (stroke).
10, 11, 12, 1, 2 o'clock

Another term for rotation at the right time was delayed rotation or late butt rotation.
Delayed cause most beginners rotate over the whole stroke (too early) instead of delayed (or better: at the right time) when trying to form tight loops.

casting the line left to right:
\\\l/ = rod movement for tight loops
\ l / = rod movement for more open loops

Greets
Bernd

[slack]

Eikre IMHO I think shooting comes before learning to haul. Hauling will help you shoot more line because it increases line speed. You should be able to shoot plenty on you BC ,no haul. fix that first. Then add the haul only making back casts. If you still have problems,I say stick with my first suggestion. Most people I see have slack problems on the FW cast with a haul because they finish to soon ,not their BC. Good luck slack