Please help! Pulling and straight line path?

Paul Arden · Post by **Paul Arden** » Fri Aug 10, 2012 12:11 am

Take approx 6m of flyline outside the tip and practise throwing tight loops with minimum force in all planes. Add a crisp stop and it should feel like you're firing the line off the rod tip. I have little or no conscious awareness of my rod hand's path when casting. I have a pretty good idea of how and when it applies force, and its relation to the target, but it's really the least of my concerns: Think loop, think target. I think your objective should be (and I believe is?) to know how it looks and feels to throw tight consistent loops. You learn this through experimentation with a short length of line.

Lefty's advice is to try throwing the line into the tip of the rod. That works. Short length of line, lots of play, throwing at targets.

OK it's late and I have to be up early again, so if that doesn't make any sense just ignore it! :p

Cheers, Paul

Aitor · Post by **Aitor** » Thu Aug 16, 2012 8:42 am

Paul Arden wrote:It's possible to pull the rod and rotate though the stroke as well as pull the rod to rotate late. If Mel was trying to teach delayed rotation then he did a very poor job of it! However I don't think he was, instead he was trying to make good use of the shoulder joint, as opposed to casting by applying the majority of force by extending the elbow.

Better to let Mel explain himself:

In the pull through casting stroke, the casting hand precedes the rod tip through most of the casting stroke and the turnover and stop takes place only at end of the casting stroke... Lay out 70 or so feet of fly line on a lawn behind you, fly rod pointing to the fly, and throw a javelin, turning the rod over only at the very end of the throw. You may be pleasantly surprised with this extreme pull through casting motion.

Paul Arden · Post by **Paul Arden** » Thu Aug 16, 2012 11:11 am

Well unfortunately it's difficult to argue with him now. Maybe in a few years :p

Bernd · Post by **Bernd** » Thu Aug 16, 2012 11:44 am

Hello Aitor,
I understand Mel's goal was about saying late rotation (by pull through motion) is the key to good casting (without tailing loops).
He did not say anything about the loop shape here.

Also in his DVD's chapter about "the open or none loop" he explained:
"tighten up the arc" or "increasing the amount of rod bend" to transform the open loop into a tight one.
He did not say anything about that "Joe" was rotating the rod over the whole stroke when getting the open loop.

Mel also did not use this late rotation on his back cast when he explained the pull through. In fact he rotated the rod over the whole back cast stroke. Why would he have done that if tight loops would have been the target and he would have seen it as: late rotation = tight loops.

I pretty much like his concept of pulling vs. pushing like he explained it in the DVD. Very clear to me. It's just a different concept than "rotation at the right time" in order to control loop shape.

Again in his book I find:

a) matching the arc size to
b) the amount of bend in the rod
in regard of loop shape control.

If he explained the positioning of rotation during the stroke to be important here, I am still missing that part.

His book is faboulus without that part anyway

. At least we agree on that!

Greets
Bernd

wjc · Post by **wjc** » Thu Aug 16, 2012 8:24 pm

Aitor,

That is a very interesting video. I assume that's Mel Krieger. It looks like a two-stage haul he's doing. Do you have a link to the whole video?

Cheers,
Jim

Aitor · Post by **Aitor** » Fri Aug 17, 2012 5:32 am

Paul Arden wrote:Well unfortunately it's difficult to argue with him now. Maybe in a few years :p

It won't be hard for you to convince him that when he thought he was pulling he was actually pushing. :p

Paul Arden · Post by **Paul Arden** » Fri Aug 17, 2012 6:03 am

Pretty sure I could convince him that I can delay rotation while pushing and rotate through a pulling stroke. Do you agree?

Bernd · Post by **Bernd** » Fri Aug 17, 2012 6:29 am

Paul Arden wrote:I can delay rotation while pushing and rotate through a pulling stroke.

I agree with that.
Since Mel did rotate through a pulling stroke on his back cast mostly he should at least agree with the second part of it.
I am not sure if Mel would call it to be a pushing motion on the fc as long as you wouldn't start to rotate the rod significally cause he was referring to the rod tip here (Aitor is right about this).
But still Mel's purpose was to avoid tailing loops on the forward cast not controlling loop size. That's why he was missing this tool in his bc and when talking about how to controll loop size.
Greets
Bernd

Aitor · Post by **Aitor** » Fri Aug 17, 2012 7:04 am

Paul Arden wrote:Pretty sure I could convince him that I can delay rotation while pushing and rotate through a pulling stroke. Do you agree?

No, obviously I don't. In fact most probably he won't be very happy seeing the terms he coined being used to mean something totally different. :p

Paul Arden · Post by **Paul Arden** » Fri Aug 17, 2012 10:30 am

Hmm maybe it's a language thing. I'll try shoot a short video!

Merlin · Post by **Merlin** » Fri Aug 17, 2012 10:38 am

Confusion may come from the fact that pulling on the line means pushing on the rod
Merlin

Bernd · Post by **Bernd** » Fri Aug 17, 2012 12:34 pm

Hi Merlin,
do we push on the rod during the back cast?
I'd think we all pull the rod during the back cast.
Greets
Bernd

Paul,
let's discuss this in Norway. Much easier in person...
Cheers
B

Merlin · Post by **Merlin** » Fri Aug 17, 2012 12:49 pm

Bernd
I think Mel was speaking of a forward cast, but you are right in the case of a bc
Merlin

Bernd · Post by **Bernd** » Fri Aug 17, 2012 12:54 pm

If I am right for the back cast then I think it is no problem at all to at least start the fc with pulling either. All we have to do is moving ellbow first.

Merlin · Post by **Merlin** » Fri Aug 17, 2012 12:59 pm

You may start the fc by pulling, but soon you have got to push.
Merlin

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Please help! Pulling and straight line path?

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