Merlin wrote:You may start the fc by pulling, but soon you have got to push.
Merlin
Thinking it to be that way in my understanding is the main reason why I see only a very few casters being able to show identical loops both on the fc and bc.
I think it is possible to move the ellbow first to the same degree on both sides (back and forth). I'd agree it needs significant more training for the fc to improve.
Mostly when we stop thinking to be limitated we are at least less limitated. (I think?)
In light of all this discussion, what path should my rod *hand* make? Is it a straight line, just pulled rather than pushed?
As Paul said it depends on the caster's style and the purpose of the cast but if you want to use a world class tournament caster as someone to emulate here is a link showing the hand path Chris Korich uses in his accuracy casts out to around 60 feet.
Chris is a "puller" and uses a hand path that is much more up to down than most beginning casters would intuitively use.
Gordy
"Flyfishing: 200 years of tradition unencumbered by progress." Ralph Cutter
gordonjudd wrote:Chris is a "puller" and uses a hand path that is much more up to down than most beginning casters would intuitively use.
Yes, because when you pull, your cast is mechanically much more efficient; your movements are much more subtle and controlled. Moreover, pulling helps lessen the possibility of tailing loops, every fly caster's arch enemy. These are pretty convincing arguments.
Aitor is not like us, he is Spanish, and therefore completely mad.
Cheers, Paul
No discutas nunca con un idiota, la gente podría no notar la diferencia.
Immanuel Kant
gordonjudd wrote:Chris is a "puller" and uses a hand path that is much more up to down than most beginning casters would intuitively use.
Yes, because when you pull, your cast is mechanically much more efficient; your movements are much more subtle and controlled. Moreover, pulling helps lessen the possibility of tailing loops, every fly caster's arch enemy. These are pretty convincing arguments.
Pulling involves moving something towards me, in this case the rod butt.
Pushing involves moving something away from me, in this case also the rod butt.
Pulling down with the elbow moves the rod butt closer to the centre of my body. Pushing from the elbow moves the rod butt away from the centre of my body.
Rotation is turning the rod butt over. Translation is moving the rod butt through space. This is independent from pushing/pulling. I can pull the rod down and rotate at the end of the Casting Stroke, or with a fixed grip, I can rotate the rod throughout the Casting Stroke - I do this for accuracy.
For Distance I push by extending the elbow and rotate late using the finger/cradle grip. That's delayed rotation after pushing. Curiously I do the opposite of what Mel is describing, I rotate throughout a pulling stroke and delay rotation using a pushing stroke.
Aitor wrote:Moreover, pulling helps lessen the possibility of tailing loops, every fly caster's arch enemy.
Really
i agree. when pulling, many if not most will consciously or not pull down a bit, creating a convex tip path, thus opening the loop.
pushing, specially the common 'thrust' at the end of the stroke can very easily make the tip path go in a concave path.
As a cure for tails I think it has more to do with how the force is applied first, and then how that affects tip path, rather than the more simple direct hand-tip relationship. It very difficult (or at least harder) to throw tails when applying force through a rotation.
gordonjudd wrote:Chris is a "puller" and uses a hand path that is much more up to down than most beginning casters would intuitively use.
Yes, because when you pull, your cast is mechanically much more efficient; your movements are much more subtle and controlled. Moreover, pulling helps lessen the possibility of tailing loops, every fly caster's arch enemy. These are pretty convincing arguments.
Paul Arden wrote:Curiously I do the opposite of what Mel is describing, I rotate throughout a pulling stroke and delay rotation using a pushing stroke.
Yes, becacuse what Mel called pulling and pushing is totally different to what SL calls pulling/pushing. Back to square number one.
Aitor is not like us, he is Spanish, and therefore completely mad.
Cheers, Paul
No discutas nunca con un idiota, la gente podría no notar la diferencia.
Immanuel Kant
hi Paul !
i don't think of it so much as a cure for tailing loops although it can't hurt when going through various remedies !
here's the part i find most interesting-
Pulling involves moving something towards me, in this case the rod butt.
Pushing involves moving something away from me, in this case also the rod butt.
these motions are natural and as far as casting goes, there's enough motions that don't fit in with 'normal' every day motions that as instructors trying to help people become better casters, the more we manage to get them to stick to 'non-exotic' moves, the better.
i am referring of course to beginner and intermediate level students or people that need to reconstruct their casting ways, assuming the advanced will already have worked these things out.
gordonjudd wrote:Chris is a "puller" and uses a hand path that is much more up to down than most beginning casters would intuitively use.
Yes, because when you pull, your cast is mechanically much more efficient; your movements are much more subtle and controlled. Moreover, pulling helps lessen the possibility of tailing loops, every fly caster's arch enemy. These are pretty convincing arguments.
Hi Lasse,
first thing that comes to (my) mind when watching this video is that many casters do not find it energy saving when watching their back cast while using the close stance but exhausting instead. At least without serious training of the style that will be.
Greets
Bernd
how hard is it to turn around ? :p
i do this all day long even when i'm not casting.
considering we don't have eyes behind our head it's a normal movement.
