What is the purpose of nano spheres & nano tubes?

TrevH · Post by **TrevH** » Tue Dec 11, 2012 1:33 pm

I've read all the marketing hype, some of which sounds like it's come out of a hair products commercial, but, cutting that out, what is the benefit in fly rod design of nano tubes and nano spheres?

I assume they weren't developed for the fly rod manufacturing industry, so what is the purpose of the nano spheres/tubes?

Cheers
Trev

crunch · Post by **crunch** » Tue Dec 11, 2012 5:51 pm

Carbon nano tubes are "stronger" for their weight than carbon fiber.

Nano spheres in "plastic" resin does not compress between fibers as much as resin only which makes laminate "stronger".

I don't know exactly what is the method Orvis use in Helios blanks but they are still the lightest for their stiffness. Perhaps autoclave (high pressure and temperature).

Nano resin does not make rods lighter.

Merlin · Post by **Merlin** » Tue Dec 11, 2012 7:34 pm

Hi Trev

Very technical stuff. Nanoparticles (usually silica) are used in resins, they improve compressing strength if their content is properly tuned, as well as buckling resistance and impact resistance. They do not improve the main material characteristics linked to casting, but they are well suited for rods working under tough conditions like saltwater fishing.

If affordable, why not use them in small trout rods? This is really useless in my opinion, but can just be considered as a marketing claim.

Merlin

crunch · Post by **crunch** » Wed Dec 12, 2012 3:31 am

I assume first "hobby" is golf where nano tubes will be used but fly fishing should come soon after. And perhaps competition bicycles use them before motor sport. I think stiffness/weight ratio will jump as much or more than when carbon fiber overtook class fiber.

Paul Arden · Post by **Paul Arden** » Wed Dec 12, 2012 4:53 am

I'm not so sure about that, Esa, I think a bit of weight in the hands is good. I think it makes very little difference when casting. Just imagine a rod with no weight above the handle: it's hard enough keeping the tip out of branches!

But my real problem is breakages. I broke one in less than an hour of casting. All the rest within less than ten minutes, and I've broken at least 7 or 8 of them. It feels fantastic - truly, a rod with outstanding feel, but if I go for distance it breaks.

Maybe - obviously! - that's unimportant for their market, after all very few people are going to hammer it like me. But technologically wise; it's limited.

So, physicists! Is this true or have I just had an unlucky run?

Cheers, Paul

Merlin · Post by **Merlin** » Wed Dec 12, 2012 6:00 am

There is no stiffness to weight ratio benefit when using nanoparticles. This type of resin, which has been used or tested in fly rods since several years, improves the transverse resistance properties. In other words they give some hoop strength and may allow Paul not to break the next rod he casts.

A few figures from a test on glass material (50% fibers, 50% resin):
longitudinal properties (those which are important for casting): zero for the modulus, 11% improvement for compressive strength.
transversal properties (important to avoid breakage): 41% improvement for the modulus and 32% for the tensile strength.

Imagine you have a rod with extra hoop layers, which bring extra mass to the rod, you may decide to drop them out and use a resin with nanoparticles to keep enough hoop strength in the rod. The use of such resin will help you to save weight, but not to the point that this glass rod will have the speed of a graphite one.

Merlin

fluffbuff · Post by **fluffbuff** » Wed Dec 12, 2012 7:32 am

Some nano non-fly rods already exist. Very thin & strong. Crazy stuff

Like a solid tip glass rod but graphite response

Bobinmich · Post by **Bobinmich** » Wed Dec 12, 2012 2:23 pm

Paul,

I would think that a low mass rod would be an advantage for distance since a significant amount of energy from the caster's hand is going into accelerating and decelerating the rod instead of into the line. Doesn't help at all if it breaks though. Just thinking.

Bob

gordonjudd · Post by **gordonjudd** » Wed Dec 12, 2012 5:33 pm

There is no stiffness to weight ratio benefit when using nanoparticles.

Merlin,
But would there be an improvement for nano-tubes? Aldila claims that is the case for golf shafts.

If nano-tubes are being used to advantage in thin-walled golf shafts I would expect they will eventually be used in super expensive fly rods as well (especially when they can make laminates with longer tubes).

Gordy

TrevH · Post by **TrevH** » Wed Dec 12, 2012 6:43 pm

Reading with interest

Good stuff coming here. Thank you (whoever) for correcting my typo in the title.

I believe A i r f l o use nano tubes whereas others use spheres?

Good to see you get mumbo jumbo in golf too

Cheers
Trev

TrevH · Post by **TrevH** » Wed Dec 12, 2012 6:45 pm

Btw - I didn't write barstool before (although I did just then) ...
T

gordonjudd · Post by **gordonjudd** » Wed Dec 12, 2012 7:22 pm

I believe A i r f l o use nano tubes whereas others use spheres?

Trev,

Have you seen a description of what A i r f l o's nan-tec technology is about? I did not see anything on their site that gives any details about what they are doing.

Utilising our unique ’low torsion’ carbon blend and combining it with Nano technology,

seems to be more marketing mambo-jumbo than real technical information.

I didn't write barstool before

I don't know if that is someone's idea of a joke, but you have to spell A i r f l o with spaces in order to prevent that "barstool" substitution.
Gordy

Merlin · Post by **Merlin** » Wed Dec 12, 2012 7:37 pm

Hi Gordy

I have data on nano tubes in resins, quite similar effect (less performing) by comparison to silicates.

That appears to be a marketing claim with little data support, there are so much things you can change at the same time that the comparison is likely flawned.

Merlin

TrevH · Post by **TrevH** » Wed Dec 12, 2012 8:17 pm

Gordy

Nothing on their site, just this sort of thing which I assume originated from the maker although they might have updated their description on their website in the meantime.

I seem to remember one of the benefits explained that the nano-tubes prevent propagation of any micro cracks that might occur in the material.

Cheers
Trev

Eugene Moore · Post by **Eugene Moore** » Thu Dec 13, 2012 2:25 am

Maybe I'm mistaken but I thought the premise of increasing the compressive strength of the resin would create a rod less likely to fail. Most rod failures due to load are compressive. The 3-M matrix was supposed to reduce breakage from compressive failure through the introduction of silica which has good compressive qualities. This would also enhance fiber distribution allowing higher compressive strength. Several rod manufacturers have already made the switch. In so doing they did reduce wall thickness and overall weight. Were they pre-mature in their utilization ??
Perhaps this is a learning curve they will be forced to endure.

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